Recent DNROI Letter (Front Line)

[9x45]

It's Front Sight, not Front Line. Experienced shooters at Level 1 matches pre-tape all the time, especially on a walking stage. My crew, which has been together for going on 20 years (youngest member with 5 years) always does that. Deliberately taping your buddies target so no one will pick up the mike or no shoot, that's just plain cheating. It doesn't help either the shooter or the sport. Now at a Level 2, no pre-taping allowed. RO and Scorekeeper have to verify the hits.. Videoing? Again, if you are experienced, not an issues. I RO'd Miculek at the 10th and 11th ICORE, and there were 3 professional camera guys there, with those big news type cameras. Drones, absolutely not.

[AWLAZS]

17 hours ago, davidb72 said:

I gave out one procedural at the Mid-Atlantic Sectional for pre-pasting. That was the ONLY instance of pre-pasting on my stage for the entire weekend.

It sounds like no on liked it but it sure was effective.

I saw the RO scream at the shoooters to help paste. We were a small squad.  A young girl 7 0r 8 years old was reduced to tears after the adult ro ripped up on her for pasting out of order.

 

[nuidad]

2 hours ago, 9x45 said:

Drones, absolutely not.

I agree...but I think it will be difficult to keep them out of any sport (or pretty much anything) as the technology progresses.  It would probably be a good idea to start thinking, now, about how they could be used safely and un-obtrusively.  (I think the awesomeness of the video from their perspective will be very appealing to a lot of people.)

Edited July 9, 2017 by nuidad

[BritinUSA]

I don't think drones are a good match for this sport; They would generally have to fly high enough that they would be visible to competitors on neighboring berms where they could pose a significant distraction. 

 

I think a better approach would be a remote camera mounted to a high tripod (maybe 15ft) would allow the camera to view the entire stage, not only the competitor but the targets too. Add a Bluetooth clip-on microphone that the RO could wear that would pick up the beep, and also help to isolate the shots from other berms. 

[Gary Stevens]

I accidentally pasted a target once when I thought it had been scored. It sucks but it happens. 

 

If I  thought i was was going to be penalized for a non COF brain lapse, I might just decided to not paste at all. Never thought I would be saying those words.

[pskys2]

21 hours ago, davidb72 said:

I hope so - it wasn't done that way to hurt anyone's feelings, just to try and run an efficient match.

I've been competing since 1978, been an SC, worked area champs the whole bit. 

I'm always first in line to run the timer or whatever means is used for scoring.

I always jump right on working the stage.

 

BUT if a match told me that I'd get a procedural for taping a non-scored target, I'd be the LAST person to set foot on the COF to work.

I'd stand at a target and wait for the RO to yell out all scored before any tape left my hand.

There'd be no way I'd risk a penalty.

 

So the effect would be just the opposite.  Any squad I was on would be slowed down.  And that would go against every fibre of my being.

[IL-SIG]

3 hours ago, Gary Stevens said:

I accidentally pasted a target once when I thought it had been scored. It sucks but it happens. 

 

If I  thought i was was going to be penalized for a non COF brain lapse, I might just decided to not paste at all. Never thought I would be saying those words.

 

I absolutely agree.  I too have inadvertently taped a target early and I felt awful about it - it was 100% a mistake.  There is a difference between a mistake and cheating, and we all know it!  And any of us who have been in this sport for some time have seen both.  You can generally tell the difference (but not always) by the reaction of the person who taped early.

 

With regard to videoing in a COF, I am very much against it and generally won't permit it on the stages I run as a CRO.  If the powers that be say I must allow competitors to have free reign to walk around a course of fire to video their buddies, I will no longer volunteer as a CRO/RO.  I will be like the majority of shooters and just come and shoot then leave the range, leaving all the work to others.  SAFETY is the #1 responsibility of the CRO/ROs working a match.  If leadership thinks that bending to the wishes of a few people, thus jeopardizing the safety of our competitors, CROs/ROs, and spectators is the right thing to do, I won't be any part of it.

 

This sport will only survive because of its volunteers.  If we alienate those volunteers, the sport will lose the life-blood that keeps it going.  How many matches at any level would happen without volunteers? 

 

[davidb72]

7 hours ago, AWLAZS said:

I saw the RO scream at the shoooters to help paste. We were a small squad.  A young girl 7 0r 8 years old was reduced to tears after the adult ro ripped up on her for pasting out of order.

 

I don't think I had to remind any of the squads on my stage to paste - everyone I dealt with all weekend long worked together and got the stage reset efficiently.

As for screaming at anyone regardless of age that's inappropriate.

[Thomas H]

10 hours ago, IL-SIG said:

With regard to videoing in a COF, I am very much against it and generally won't permit it on the stages I run as a CRO.  If the powers that be say I must allow competitors to have free reign to walk around a course of fire to video their buddies, I will no longer volunteer as a CRO/RO.  I will be like the majority of shooters and just come and shoot then leave the range, leaving all the work to others.  SAFETY is the #1 responsibility of the CRO/ROs working a match.  If leadership thinks that bending to the wishes of a few people, thus jeopardizing the safety of our competitors, CROs/ROs, and spectators is the right thing to do, I won't be any part of it.

 

There is a middle ground here---which, I'll note, is what DNROI said:

-------

Banning all other competitors from the area inside the fault lines.
o While this can be necessary on some courses of fire, that’s not always the case. Competitors using a phone or camera to video other competitor’s attempts should ask for permission to enter the shooting area, and RO’s should control where they are for safety reasons. The RO’s need to control their stage, but within reason, and good judgment should be used in all cases—both on the part of the videographer and the range officers. 7.1.1, 7.1.2

-------

 

There are some stages where, for safety, no one but the ROs should be within the shooting area.  There are other stages where there are no safety issues at all if someone with a camera enters and proceeds some distance uprange.  It depends on the course of fire, and therefore, the RO's should be able to use their common sense and good judgement to make the call.

 

Making a blanket statement "competitors to have free reign to walk around a course of fire to video their buddies" is as silly as saying "no one may ever step into the shooting area or past the most-uprange portion of the shooting area until the range is clear".  Both of those are absolute statements that simply bear no resemblance to the vast majority of stages.

 

It seems to me that several parts of the statement by DNROI (overall) are simply reminders that people need to stop making blanket absolute statements, and and actually start exercising some common sense. 

 

Similar to the "pasting early gets you a procedural" -- if that was called at a match I attended (and it has been), I'm going to be much slower to paste, and so will other people.  (Which, I'll has happened.)    That sort of blanket "everyone gets the same penalty even though the circumstances can be hugely different from stage to stage and case to case" isn't common sense, and doesn't follow the rules. 

 

Similarly, making a blanket statement that any camera work inside the shooting area is automatically unsafe and jeopardizes competitors---isn't common sense.  Are there some stages where this is true?  Sure.  (And on most of those types of stages, no one needs to be in the shooting area to get good video anyway.)  Are there many stages where this isn't true at all?  Yep.

 

I've personally found that in the vast majority of cases, telling the camera person that they need to be at least a couple of feet behind the most-uprange RO on the stage keeps them out of the way, and gives plenty of room for movement.  That doesn't always work----but we are supposed to be able to use common sense and find something that will work.    I've worked at least two majors a year since 2009 (sometimes up to four majors), and I haven't ever had an issue with camera people.  Mostly because in the vast majority of cases it simply isn't an issue, and because in the cases where it might be, I can make it clear what they can and can't do.

 

That seems to me to be all DNROI is saying---it isn't a blanket thing, so don't make it that way.  Use common sense.

 

 

 

[MemphisMechanic]

I've never had an issue filming another shooter: if you know what route they're taking through the maze in order to reach the cheese at the end, it's pretty simple to stay well behind the RO and well away from the muzzle.

 

I always urge someone holding my phone and recording to stay further back and get a wider field of view away. Analyzing footwork means seeing the feet, after all.

[alma]

The concern referenced at the Shooters' meeting was the about recently videos where there was interference because of people being in the shooting area that shouldn't have been there, but unless they have been watching different videos than I have been watching it was ironically an RO blocking the shooter, not someone filming. I can't recall seeing any video where the camera person got in the way, although I'm sure it could happen. It's reasonable to request for them to keep distance, but a hard rule seems unnecessary. 

[Sarge]

A procedural for taping early BY MISTAKE is dumb and should be forbidden by DNROI. Just like yelling at them for it is.

[lcs]

15 hours ago, Gary Stevens said:

I accidentally pasted a target once when I thought it had been scored. It sucks but it happens. 

 

If I  thought i was was going to be penalized for a non COF brain lapse, I might just decided to not paste at all. Never thought I would be saying those words.

 

Me too.  

 

I get enough procedurals for have a lazy rear foot. 

[9x45]

19 hours ago, AWLAZS said:

I saw the RO scream at the shoooters to help paste. We were a small squad.  A young girl 7 0r 8 years old was reduced to tears after the adult ro ripped up on her for pasting out of order.

 

 

And what kind of a weak suck phucking shieete head ashole would do that? He doesn't even belong in the parking lot, let alone on the stage. And I'll bet he is not NROI certified either. And if he is, which I doubt, then he should have been DQ'd under Rule 7.2/10.6 and reported to the NROI, and to Child Protective Services. That's absolutely the worst thing I've ever heard about in this sport, ever. If he ever makes it to Heaven, he's going to find God really hates people like that, and if he makes into Hell, he's going to find the Devil hates people like that also.... You don't scream at 7 year old children, period.

 

7.2 Discipline of Match Officials
7.2.1 The Range Master has authority over all Match Officials other than the Match Director (except when the Match Director is actually participat-ing as a competitor at the match), and is responsible for decisions in matters concerning conduct and discipline.

 

10.6 Match Disqualification – Unsportsmanlike Conduct
10.6.1 or any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute.

Edited July 10, 2017 by 9x45

[mikeinctown]

Not sure why it is so hard a concept to not paste before you are supposed to. I just stand by a target until I see the person physically pass by and announce the score. If there is a question if the target was already scored I just ask if they were scored. I know for sure they all were if I see the person at the end of the stage showing the pad to the competitor. Waiting until the end literally adds maybe 30 seconds of time to make sure it is always done correctly.

 

At my local matches we usually have 15 people on a squad and people many times each have one target to paste and so they just stand by one. This takes into account the shooter, tablet holder, person scoring, and even a couple others reloading after already shooting that aren't doing anything.

[IL-SIG]

Thomas - I understand and don't disagree with your point.  My feedback is that the RO should be focused on the shooter, not worrying about where another shooter may be in the course of fire.  While I agree this is up to the discretion of the RO, my personal point-of-view is that other shooters should generally be out of the COF because we never know what a shooter may do.  They may immediately change their direction of travel to make up a shot or who knows what else.  

 

On more than one occasion (and becoming more frequent) when I'm the RO not on the timer, I am having to stop competitors who are videoing from going down range while the shooter is actively engaging targets.  The videographer is head down in their phone videoing the shooter and may lose situational awareness and get too far down range. 

 

All I want is a safe and fair stage, safe competitors, and safe spectators.   Everything else is extra.  With our sport, safety can absolutely not be compromised.  

[Patrick Scott]

27 minutes ago, 9x45 said:

 

And what kind of a weak suck phucking shieete head ashole would do that? He doesn't even belong in the parking lot, let alone on the stage. And I'll bet he is not NROI certified either. And if he is, which I doubt, then he should have been DQ'd under Rule 7.2/10.6 and reported to the NROI, and to Child Protective Services. That's absolutely the worst thing I've ever heard about in this sport, ever. If he ever makes it to Heaven, he's going to find God really hates people like that, and if he makes into Hell, he's going to find the Devil hates people like that also.... You don't scream at 7 year old children, period.

 

7.2 Discipline of Match Officials
7.2.1 The Range Master has authority over all Match Officials other than the Match Director (except when the Match Director is actually participat-ing as a competitor at the match), and is responsible for decisions in matters concerning conduct and discipline.

 

10.6 Match Disqualification – Unsportsmanlike Conduct
10.6.1 or any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute.

That official claimed to be a CRO(i haven't verified).. I witnessed the same event and to top it off the CRO was able to tell the shooters hits on a well used target by looking at the rain bag that was placed on it after the premature patching.. Yeah OK...  

I also found it aggravating that after the shooters meeting speech about no one allowed in the COF that later that day we were damn near getting yelled at to get out there and paste while the score keeper was scoring as the stage was being shot.  Yes, I get it, bad weather was coming and going all day and things were trying to be hurried up, but if you lay down a rule that tells me to keep my ass out of the COF, dont yell at me for keeping my ass out of the COF. 
 

[davidb72]

30 minutes ago, mikeinctown said:

Not sure why it is so hard a concept to not paste before you are supposed to. I just stand by a target until I see the person physically pass by and announce the score. If there is a question if the target was already scored I just ask if they were scored. I know for sure they all were if I see the person at the end of the stage showing the pad to the competitor. Waiting until the end literally adds maybe 30 seconds of time to make sure it is always done correctly.

I have to agree with this.

[jester121]

53 minutes ago, mikeinctown said:

At my local matches we usually have 15 people on a squad and people many times each have one target to paste and so they just stand by one. This takes into account the shooter, tablet holder, person scoring, and even a couple others reloading after already shooting that aren't doing anything.

 

That's local matches (15-man squads? Ugh... log day). How about at a major on a short squad with 6 or 7 people? I shooter, 1 on deck, 1 loading mags -- standing around next to the closest target waiting for the RO to pass by ain't gonna cut it.

 

Even on big squads, having 1 person stationed at 1 particular target also leads to a greater chance of un-pasted targets when that person goes on deck and no one bothers to double check. Should it happen? No. Does it happen? Yes.

[mikeinctown]

1 minute ago, jester121 said:

 

That's local matches (15-man squads? Ugh... log day). How about at a major on a short squad with 6 or 7 people? I shooter, 1 on deck, 1 loading mags -- standing around next to the closest target waiting for the RO to pass by ain't gonna cut it.

 

Even on big squads, having 1 person stationed at 1 particular target also leads to a greater chance of un-pasted targets when that person goes on deck and no one bothers to double check. Should it happen? No. Does it happen? Yes.

 

So you follow the guy calling out the scoring. It's not rocket science and takes seconds to paste a target. There have been a few stages where there are three targets and one person pasting. It takes a minute. It seems like you are making excuses for stupididity. If you actually have a paster gun it is even faster as two people can do a stage just as fast as the person can call out the scores.

[Gary Stevens]

2 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

I've never had an issue filming another shooter: if you know what route they're taking through the maze in order to reach the cheese at the end, it's pretty simple to stay well behind the RO and well away from the muzzle.

 

I always urge someone holding my phone and recording to stay further back and get a wider field of view away. Analyzing footwork means seeing the feet, after all.

 

Often it happens when the RO crew deviate from a pattern of scoring. Sometimes heat and fatigue disrupt the thought process..

Sometimes humans will be human and make an honest mistake. And very rarely a dishonest person will rear their head.  

 

Whoops responded to to the wrong poster. Guess I'll get a procedural for that.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Gary Stevens

[Bosshoss]

1 hour ago, mikeinctown said:

Waiting until the end literally adds maybe 30 seconds of time to make sure it is always done correctly.

 

It can still be done accurately without waiting till the end.

 

30 seconds no big deal right? Well 30 seconds per shooter if 12 on a squad is 6 minutes per stage and if 6 stages that is 36 minutes to overall match time. Sure some will say what is the rush. But some have other family things to do on a weekend and while maybe not in a hurry don't want to drag it out anymore than they have to. Several of the club members were out previous days or that morning setting up stages and getting things ready. They are ready to go home and spend some time with the family and get out of the heat.

Hopefully the shooters are staying to help tear down the stages after the match.

The matches in this area are growing and it isn't unusual to have 80-90 shooters at a match which adding 30 seconds per shooter could add over a hour to the match. Some clubs have made hints at limiting how many shooters can shoot the match and adding 30 seconds to the reset time will reduce this number even more.

Ask any match director what they think of adding 30 seconds per shooter turnover time would hurt. I wouldn't ask right after a match or stand to close when asking.

 

[9x45]

Try 30 seconds added when we have, on a regular basis, 110 to 140, Level 1 matches.

[mikeinctown]

Except you aren't factoring in the time that is spent showing the last competitor his scores, calling out the next person up, person on deck, and in the hole. Timers and tablets get handed to another person because that person has to prepare for something, go to the restroom or whatever. There is PLENTY of time in between the actual scoring and when the next shooter gets the make ready command. You guys are acting as if nothing happens or can happen at the same time and that it is one thing, then another once that first thing stops. All I see are excuses as to why you can't just pay attention and wait until you know for sure the target has been scored.

 

The only time anyone had to wait at a match from yesterday was when we were pasting the targets 40 yards down range and even then it only took a couple seconds longer than it did for the scorers to finish walking back. Every other stage was done getting pasted by the time the scorer had shown the previous shooter their score and called the next shooter up.

Edited July 10, 2017 by mikeinctown

[Mhall]

Mike, 

I think you are correct, but the folks contributing to the discussion are not the ones we need to worry about, when it comes to resetting a stage.

 

New shooters don't know what they don't know. Perhaps a bit of guidance (not shouting) may go a long way.