Where is the "Make Ready Location"

[nuidad]

I can't find a concise definition of the "Make Ready" Location in the rule book.  In my limited experience I have always presumed that, following the Make Ready command, it is the location within the course of fire that the competitor chooses to draw his firearm from his holster and to prepare the firearm in accordance with the written stage briefing.  Therefore, the act of drawing the unloaded firearm from the holster is the triggering action that defines the Make Ready Location.    After preparing the firearm (and taking a sight picture if desired), the competitor must then proceed safely to the Start Location and assume the start position.  Am I correct on all this?

 

What is the triggering action taken by a PCC competitor that defines the Make Ready Location.  Is it the removal of the chamber flag? Is that the location from which the PCC competitor can take one step for a sight picture?

[Kraj]

I though it was where ever you were standing when you were told to make ready. 

 

8.3.1 doesn't give the competitor a lot of freedom

Edited July 3, 2017 by Kraj

[nuidad]

I'll bet a lot of people think that is right but I can't find anything in the Rule Book that says that.  I suppose it could be stated in the WSB but I don't think I've ever seen that.  I think most competitors just make ready somewhere near the Start Location.  I know no one wants to enter into a debate about the MR Location with an RO when they are getting ready to shoot...could be real distracting for both parties.

 

I can't find any part of 8.3.1 that applies to the time before the Make Ready command...like where it should occur.

Edited July 3, 2017 by nuidad

[Schutzenmeister]

Personally, I will not give the MR command anywhere but at the start location (wherever that is per the WSB.)  I don't know any ROs worth their salt who do otherwise.  From there, I think you all need to read 8.3.1.1.

[Bhayden]

Agreed. There is no "make ready" position. The RO generally doesn't give make ready until the shooter is at the start position. The shooter must remain under the supervision of the RO per 10.5.1. That being said, I have seen some stages where the start position is anywhere in the shooting area. If you are changing start positions, for goodness sake, talk to your RO.

 

the other thing that I see a lot of is optics shooters wanting to take a sight picture at make ready. A target may or may not be available from the start position. I've had instruction from RMs and MDs to allow them to move to take said sight picture. How do you guys handle it?

[nuidad]

 

30 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

Personally, I will not give the MR command anywhere but at the start location (wherever that is per the WSB.)  I don't know any ROs worth their salt who do otherwise.  From there, I think you all need to read 8.3.1.1.

I couldn't count the times I have made ready from behind the shooting box or away from the barricade with the X's and then moved to the starting location.  My reading of 8.3.1.1 is that, once I have assumed the start position, at the start location, I am subject to 8.3.1.1.  I've never been called for this and I've never seen anyone called for this.  Sometimes it is not convenient to make ready at the Start Location and you are forced to move from the Make Ready Location to the Start Location.  I have also allowed optics shooters to take a sight picture away from the start location, at their choice of a Make Ready Location, as long as it is only one step from the "Make Ready" location (8.7.1).  When they un-holstered their firearm, following the make ready command, I knew where the Make Ready location was.

 

 

Edited July 3, 2017 by nuidad

[rowdyb]

It's wherever the RO says it is in my experience. And from observation, as I don't do this, but people who hear make ready and take a bunch of steps away, drawing and practicing acquiring that first target; that gets the RO really riled up. (Sorry I didn't look up the rule regarding this last example)

 

Like nuidad I've been told to make ready at places that weren't the start location, by the RO's choosing every time mind you, as a matter of perceived convenience or safety or expediency or whatever.

 

But by far more common is I hear nothing uttered from their mouths until I stand reasonably close to them, typically right at the starting position where they are standing.

 

So say the stage has a very tricky target you want to get ooooonnnneee final look at that is down range and behind a bunch of walls. To me it sounds like you're asking if you could ask the RO to make ready at the end of the stage no where near the start position, so you could get a sight picture there. Make ready there and then walk back to the start position under the direction of the RO?

[toothandnail]

14 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

It's wherever the RO says it is in my experience. And from observation, as I don't do this, but people who hear make ready and take a bunch of steps away, drawing and practicing acquiring that first target; that gets the RO really riled up. (Sorry I didn't look up the rule regarding this last example)

 

Like nuidad I've been told to make ready at places that weren't the start location, by the RO's choosing every time mind you, as a matter of perceived convenience or safety or expediency or whatever.

 

But by far more common is I hear nothing uttered from their mouths until I stand reasonably close to them, typically right at the starting position where they are standing.

 

So say the stage has a very tricky target you want to get ooooonnnneee final look at that is down range and behind a bunch of walls. To me it sounds like you're asking if you could ask the RO to make ready at the end of the stage no where near the start position, so you could get a sight picture there. Make ready there and then walk back to the start position under the direction of the RO?

As an RO I would not allow that, as it will soon get the stage behind schedule, as a MD , I would backup my RO's who also didn't allow it.

Most likely I would have instructed them either specifically, or in the WSB, on a stage that may lend itself to being a bottleneck, what to allow at the MR command. 

[davsco]

8.7.1 A competitor is permitted to take a sight picture prior to the start signal. Such sight picture is only permitted no more than one step from the “Make Ready” location. 

 

if someone is making ready well away from the WSB start position, then the one-step rule above looks like it would be violated.  thinking the above implies that make ready is at the start position.

[jcc7x7]

27 minutes ago, davsco said:

thinking the above implies that make ready is at the start position.

I've asked a number of times when starting behind a barricade if I could step out (more than one step) to take a sight picture /adjust the brightness of the dot.  Some RO's allow it some do not.

 I allow it when I'm the RO as long as it isn't going to hold up the stage. If I think it might slow down the match, I say no " you have one step" 

Key thing is do it the same with all the shooters at your stage.

[nuidad]

1 hour ago, rowdyb said:

 

 

So say the stage has a very tricky target you want to get ooooonnnneee final look at that is down range and behind a bunch of walls. To me it sounds like you're asking if you could ask the RO to make ready at the end of the stage no where near the start position, so you could get a sight picture there. Make ready there and then walk back to the start position under the direction of the RO?

I'm suggesting that you don't need to ask the RO about where to Make Ready...it's the competitor's prerogative since there is nothing in the rules that says "...you must make ready where you're told."  And if you need that last look at a target to get a sight picture (or whatever it is the optics guys do), that's where the one-step rule 8.7.1 applies.  Then you holster your firearm and go safely to the start location and assume the position...all under the direction of the RO who is applying all rules correctly. 

 

24 minutes ago, jcc7x7 said:

 I allow it when I'm the RO as long as it isn't going to hold up the stage. If I think it might slow down the match, I say no " you have one step" 

Key thing is do it the same with all the shooters at your stage.

I understand this might slow down the match a little but, with all due respect jcc7X7, consistency extends a lot further than "... with all the shooters at your stage."  I travel to matches a lot and when one club is doing it one way and another, another way, it gets complicated.  That's why this thread...to find out the right way, according to the rules. If the rules say that the Make Ready location is the same as the Start location, I'm good with that...no prob.  It the rules say it is near the Start location...also good.  If this is the general practice...I'm also good, but I'm seeing that there are several reasonable interpretations and it's a bitch to encounter those during make ready, both as a shooter and an RO.

 

1 hour ago, davsco said:

8.7.1 A competitor is permitted to take a sight picture prior to the start signal. Such sight picture is only permitted no more than one step from the “Make Ready” location. 

 

if someone is making ready well away from the WSB start position, then the one-step rule above looks like it would be violated.  thinking the above implies that make ready is at the start position.

 

That's the issue here.   Is the Make Ready location the same as the Start location?  8.7.1 only mentions the Make Ready location...I'm not sure you can stretch that to also mean the Start location.

[ChuckS]

1 hour ago, davsco said:

8.7.1 A competitor is permitted to take a sight picture prior to the start signal. Such sight picture is only permitted no more than one step from the “Make Ready” location. 

 

if someone is making ready well away from the WSB start position, then the one-step rule above looks like it would be violated.  thinking the above implies that make ready is at the start position.

Not all the time. I have shot stages where you started outside the shooting area but the gun was on one barrel/table and mag(s) on another. So, you "made ready" by your barrel/table of choice and the went to the start position. Now, if I took more than one step when I was screwing around with my firearm at the barrel/table, that is when 8.7.1 limits \would come into effect.

[nuidad]

9 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

Not all the time. I have shot stages where you started outside the shooting area but the gun was on one barrel/table and mag(s) on another. So, you "made ready" by your barrel/table of choice and the went to the start position. Now, if I took more than one step when I was screwing around with my firearm at the barrel/table, that is when 8.7.1 limits \would come into effect.

A very logical explanation/example as to why the Make Ready location is not necessarily the Start Location!  Wish I had thought of that.

Edited July 4, 2017 by nuidad

[rowdyb]

To me it still seems like the op  is stating or asking that you can make ready anywhere you please. Because where you are given the make ready command is not specified. 

 

Many things after MR are specified though.

 

Most of us are reporting though that what we see most places most the time is it is synonymous with the start position. 

 

As someone who also travels all over for matches these kind of idiosyncratic differences are something I've learned to brush off as fast as possible and do my thing. My game is beyond where I'm given the make ready command.

[nuidad]

19 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

As someone who also travels all over for matches these kind of idiosyncratic differences are something I've learned to brush off as fast as possible and do my thing. My game is beyond where I'm given the make ready command.

And you bring very sage advice to this forum.

 

I, too, cope well with the idiosyncrasies...never really been bothered by the distractions...they certainly aren't what makes me a mediocre shooter!  I just don't want to be the RO that does distract someone by not having a good understanding and application of the rules.

Edited July 4, 2017 by nuidad

[Sarge]

Seeing things done differently from match to match doesn't bother me as long as all the differences are legal. I have CRO'ed stages at majors where the shooter started where they could see absolutely nothing. So I penned it into the wsb that they were permitted to draw and move to an open port(or an end of a wall) on make ready command. But those were only 2-3 steps away and didn't really eat up much time. Any further than a one second jump and I would never allow it. And I certainly won't let a shooter make ready where they please. 

[nuidad]

44 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Seeing things done differently from match to match doesn't bother me as long as all the differences are legal. I have CRO'ed stages at majors where the shooter started where they could see absolutely nothing. So I penned it into the wsb that they were permitted to draw and move to an open port(or an end of a wall) on make ready command. But those were only 2-3 steps away and didn't really eat up much time. Any further than a one second jump and I would never allow it. And I certainly won't let a shooter make ready where they please. 

Sarge,  How do you deal with the Open and CO shooters that want to dial-in away from the Start location?

[nuidad]

Since the time factor has been mentioned three times, I began thinking about it.  How much time would actually be wasted by the few shooters who chose to Make Ready away from the Start location?  Even if every shooter chose to Make Ready 10 seconds away from the Start location it might increase the total match time by around 15 minutes (10 sec. X 15 shooters/squad X 6 stages = 15 min).  Now, realistically, only a few shooters will want to do the "remote" make ready, so it would probably be less than about 5 minutes of extra time.  I think good stage management between shooters...resetting, scoring etc., is where the real time is saved.  That, and good stage design, avoidance of re-shoots, and avoidance of un-needed controversies.  Trying to eke out a second here and there between the MR and the RIC commands might look like an unnecessary effort on the part of the RO.  I figure it's the ROs responsibility to maximize efficiency between shooters and let the shooter use the time he/she needs.  That said, I don't think I've ever seen a shooter misuse/abuse his time on the stage.  I've always thought that was my time.

Edited July 4, 2017 by nuidad
Clarity

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, nuidad said:

Sarge,  How do you deal with the Open and CO shooters that want to dial-in away from the Start location?

I don't see it much these days since everybody tends to use see through walls. But before that generally I was allowed and then I permitted once I became an RO, to allow small relocation to see a target for optic. Adjusting a dot brightness into a solid white wall tells you very little. i.e. I'm fine with taking a few steps to find a target if nothing is available such as is common at PASA park. And since I do it for dot guys, if anybody else wants the same luxury I am good with that too. Thats why it's only a few steps and very little time involved for me to be good with it.

[rowdyb]

Very very rarely are you confronted with something solid completely blocking your view and right up close to you from 90 degrees left to 90 degrees right. Need to look at your dot for something during MR? Pick a rock or a bush or something else along the berm and within the "180" if you can't see a target, the walls are solid or whatever.

 

Shouldn't this all be dialed into your brain by now? Shouldn't you be able to visualize through the dot what you need to see?

 

(I also can't count how many times I've been at a match where the start position was behind a wall of barrels or some other solid prop and was told to step out into the open to make read and then allowed to do what I needed in the open and step back to the start position. The make ready location seems to be determined by the RO's idea of safety and expediency for the stage, within the bounds of the WSB. I'm fine with continuing to allow them that power/discretion and not needing it expressly delineated in the rule book.)

Edited July 4, 2017 by rowdyb

[nuidad]

5 hours ago, rowdyb said:

(I also can't count how many times I've been at a match where the start position was behind a wall of barrels or some other solid prop and was told to step out into the open to make read and then allowed to do what I needed in the open and step back to the start position. The make ready location seems to be determined by the RO's idea of safety and expediency for the stage, within the bounds of the WSB. I'm fine with continuing to allow them that power/discretion and not needing it expressly delineated in the rule book.)

Do you think you were told to "step out" for the purposes of safety...because if it's not safe to make ready behind that wall, it probably isn't safe to draw and fire your pistol from that location.  And, as far as expediency, the RO just added a couple of seconds to the MR time.  What if you had decided on your own that you wanted to MR at that location and the RO said, "No.  You have to MR at the Start location."  That's happened to me in the past and it did get into my head (for a few seconds).  Not a big deal but, where's the rule that takes the discretion away from the competitor and gives it to the RO when there is no safety or expediency issues in play.

[motosapiens]

13 hours ago, nuidad said:

Sarge,  How do you deal with the Open and CO shooters that want to dial-in away from the Start location?

 

I haven't seen any. I've worked 3 nationals and 4 area matches and 4-5 section matches, and everyone I've seen just makes ready at the start position. if there are no targets visible at the start position, i tell them they can take a few steps to where there is one. If you want to try to make ready somewhere else, be prepared to not get the make ready command until you move to where the RO wants you to be. Most good shooters have more important stuff to worry about than arguing with the RO.

[nuidad]

13 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

I haven't seen any. I've worked 3 nationals and 4 area matches and 4-5 section matches, and everyone I've seen just makes ready at the start position. if there are no targets visible at the start position, i tell them they can take a few steps to where there is one. If you want to try to make ready somewhere else, be prepared to not get the make ready command until you move to where the RO wants you to be. Most good shooters have more important stuff to worry about than arguing with the RO.

I agree...I always just MR where I'm told...no big deal.  The question I'm asking is not how to deal with this situation as a shooter but, is the RO acting within the rules when he requires you to move to where he wants...it's just about the rules.  I've never argued a call as un-important as this on the range, but I think it's appropriate to discuss it here on BE in the spirit of the rules. 

[davsco]

16 hours ago, ChuckS said:

Not all the time. I have shot stages where you started outside the shooting area but the gun was on one barrel/table and mag(s) on another. So, you "made ready" by your barrel/table of choice and the went to the start position. Now, if I took more than one step when I was screwing around with my firearm at the barrel/table, that is when 8.7.1 limits \would come into effect.

yeah i should have said the "gun" starting position.  most of the time it is the shooter's start position as it's holstered, but as you noted sometimes on a table or barrels away from the shooter's actual start position.

 

folks have what, 5 minutes, before shooting starts to plan the stage, then multiple times while going forward to help paste and reset, and then another full run when on deck.  don't think we want shooters (one, most or all) doing yet another full walkthrough after the range is cleared and told to make ready.

[rowdyb]

The shooter is under the RO's control. RO wants make ready point at a certain place, there it is. To me that's good enough and the end. It doesn't have to be spelled out in the rule book as it's such a widely accepted practice and is reasonable and prudent.

 

(To the safety comment. I didn't say it was unsafe to make ready behind a solid wall or barrels. I have experienced RO's who will voice the opinion that making ready where one can't see all the way down the range to the berm is an unsafe act compared to being able to see this. The 4 gun safety rules and all. It's a perception of what's visible should your gun go bang all on its own at make ready. I think we're calling that a Cook-fire now...")