redfisher Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 (edited) Does it mean fully enclosed or sealed in a zippered compartment? I have an inner sleeve for my shooting bag that I have used for decades to put my empty gun in and then put in my shooting bag. It is a sleeve with handles, open at the top but no zipper to close it. I was told today that, that sleeve may not be considered a "legal" carrying device. Is there a definition of how your gun should be secured within a bag. To use a slightly different example if my gun were just in a ahooting bag and the zipper was open would that be a violation? Edited July 3, 2017 by redfisher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redfisher Posted July 2, 2017 Author Share Posted July 2, 2017 This is my sleeve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redfisher Posted July 2, 2017 Author Share Posted July 2, 2017 What about then carrying the bag/gun like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 I do like your last picture. I don't know why I do, but I do. At the same time I'm incredulous someone hassled you about the set up you showed you currently used. They should find something better to do.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redfisher Posted July 2, 2017 Author Share Posted July 2, 2017 Rule 5.2.1 does not mention anything about a shooting bag being zippered or closed in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 (edited) I suspect it is confusion regarding covered triggers. For a holster to be legal it must cover the trigger, for a bag there is no such requirement in the rules... so there appears to be a lack of standardization in the two methods of carrying a handgun. Edited July 3, 2017 by BritinUSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrispies Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 The gentleman was a Demagogue of InConceivable Knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 Or, possibly, just a Dunce ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 4 hours ago, redfisher said: I have an inner sleeve for my shooting bag that I have used for decades to put my empty gun in and then put in my shooting bag. It is a sleeve with handles, open at the top but no zipper to close it. I was told today that, that sleeve may not be considered a "legal" carrying device. Is there a definition of how your gun should be secured within a bag. To use a slightly different example if my gun were just in a ahooting bag and the zipper was open would that be a violation? Assuming that this happened at a sanctioned USPSA match, always ask to be shown the rule that they are tying to enforce. That usually fixes stuff like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redfisher Posted July 3, 2017 Author Share Posted July 3, 2017 11 minutes ago, ChuckS said: Assuming that this happened at a sanctioned USPSA match, always ask to be shown the rule that they are tying to enforce. That usually fixes stuff like this. At a local sanctioned match I shoot regularly, and I know the guy who thought it might be a problem. I wasn't going to argue at that point, it wasn't like he DQ'd me, but I did want to verify that there wasn't a rule defining the "bagged" condition that I might not know about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 It's a stretch, but there's a rule that gives the RM final authority over holster suitability. If there was really a dispute, and I was working as RM, I'd hang my hat on that rule to determine that a Zip-Loc bag was not legal, and that if a zippered compartment or bag was available, to request that it be zipped closed, when storing a handgun. In the alternative, I might rule that a competitor who did not have an appropriate bag, but did have an appropriate holster, be required to keep the gun holstered between runs.... That would set up a quandary at the end of the match -- but we could probably find a solution.... I'm ok with the stage bag, most likely, though I'd ask if there was a more secure alternative available. And I'd warn a competitor using that bag, that a hand inside the bag, would trigger a DQ under handling the firearm.... (Trigger accessible, right?) So bottom line -- try to make the best decision you can given circumstances. Try hard not to be a dick to the competitor, while at the same time considering and ensuring the safety of all others on the range -- it's a tricky balance but most of our ROs pull that off every day..... And for competitors -- try to think about it from the other side. I think there's an obligation on each of us to make sure that our equipment is as safe as we can make it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redfisher Posted July 4, 2017 Author Share Posted July 4, 2017 3 hours ago, Nik Habicht said: It's a stretch, but there's a rule that gives the RM final authority over holster suitability. If there was really a dispute, and I was working as RM, I'd hang my hat on that rule to determine that a Zip-Loc bag was not legal, and that if a zippered compartment or bag was available, to request that it be zipped closed, when storing a handgun. In the alternative, I might rule that a competitor who did not have an appropriate bag, but did have an appropriate holster, be required to keep the gun holstered between runs.... That would set up a quandary at the end of the match -- but we could probably find a solution.... I'm ok with the stage bag, most likely, though I'd ask if there was a more secure alternative available. And I'd warn a competitor using that bag, that a hand inside the bag, would trigger a DQ under handling the firearm.... (Trigger accessible, right?) So bottom line -- try to make the best decision you can given circumstances. Try hard not to be a dick to the competitor, while at the same time considering and ensuring the safety of all others on the range -- it's a tricky balance but most of our ROs pull that off every day..... And for competitors -- try to think about it from the other side. I think there's an obligation on each of us to make sure that our equipment is as safe as we can make it. It only gets used when un-bagging at the beginning of a match (in the safety area) and re-bagging at the end (in the safety area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 If you're grabbing it out of your bag a few feet away from the safety area and then carrying it there by the handles -- I have no issues, unless you put your hand inside the bag on the way, or do something else unsafe...... If the safe table is large enough that you can drop your entire bag, to pull your gun out of and holster up, that works for me too.... For me its all context. I try to treat competitors the way I'd like to be treated, when officiating a match. When shooting one, I try to treat my fellow competitors and the match staff the way I'd lie to be treated..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester121 Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 On 7/4/2017 at 0:54 PM, Nik Habicht said: It's a stretch, but there's a rule that gives the RM final authority over holster suitability. Quite a stretch, indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 8, 2017 Share Posted July 8, 2017 7 hours ago, jester121 said: Quite a stretch, indeed. I acknowledged that it was a stretch -- but lets pretend that you're the RM: CRO calls you to a stage because a competitor wants to bag his gun at the end of a run in a Ziploc bag, and carry it that way to the next stage. Do you approve or not? Please use the rulebook as a basis for your decision...... There are calls that need to be made at most matches that are not explicitly and specifically addressed by the rulebook. My philosophy is to consider the impact of the situation on safety and/or competitive equity, and to consider what the rules say about similar situations. When it comes to safety concerns, the onus is on the match staff to make those decisions. I try not to make those arbitrarily and strive to come up with a ruling that addresses the problem at hand, while minimally affecting the competitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester121 Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 On 7/7/2017 at 9:13 PM, Nik Habicht said: I acknowledged that it was a stretch -- but lets pretend that you're the RM: CRO calls you to a stage because a competitor wants to bag his gun at the end of a run in a Ziploc bag, and carry it that way to the next stage. Do you approve or not? Please use the rulebook as a basis for your decision...... Interpreting the hazy territory between the rulebook and real life is kind of high on the list of why we have RMs. That, and popper-f-ing competitors. And there's a lot to be said for calling people out and saying "don't be a dumbass, do a better job of bagging your gun" instead of stooping to a level of ridiculous tortured logic that wastes a bunch of everyone's time, just to accommodate someone who wants to behave like a 4 year old child in a range lawyer's body. "Because I said so" is suitable justification for a ruling sometimes, as opposed to swapping words in and out of the text of the rulebook to prove who's the better wordsmith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 The rulebook definitions of "draw" and "handling" as well as Rule 5.2.7.4 have something in common: functional access to the trigger. A Zip-Lock bag does not prevent access to the trigger and would not be acceptable. Until something prevents access (zipper, snaps, latch...) it is not a "gun case or bag" (Rule 5.2.1) and not suitable to allow "Range is Clear". That is how it is taught in the RO class. A gun sleeve which does not prevent access to the trigger is similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 2 hours ago, George Jones said: The rulebook definitions of "draw" and "handling" as well as Rule 5.2.7.4 have something in common: functional access to the trigger. A Zip-Lock bag does not prevent access to the trigger and would not be acceptable. Until something prevents access (zipper, snaps, latch...) it is not a "gun case or bag" (Rule 5.2.1) and not suitable to allow "Range is Clear". That is how it is taught in the RO class. A gun sleeve which does not prevent access to the trigger is similar. So as an RMI you say no go to the red gun bag at the top of the thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 What I'm saying is it doesn't meet the basic requirement which applies to all the gun handling/holster rules. Nowhere can you find anything which allows access to the trigger except between MR and RIC, except for being at the safety table. Therefor, I would not allow the shooter to leave the stage in that particular condition. It's not as if it can't be quickly rectified by simply closing the zipper on the shooter's bag which can be used to hold the open sleeve. It may seem tough for the libertarians in the crowd, but I believe it is the only option I have lacking a different ruling from DNROI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 I often bag and un-bag my gun on a stage with RO supervision. The dust/dirt and wind make it difficult to keep the gun clean or somewhat clean. My bag is zippered. So it meets George's criteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redfisher Posted July 19, 2017 Author Share Posted July 19, 2017 On July 18, 2017 at 10:19 AM, George Jones said: What I'm saying is it doesn't meet the basic requirement which applies to all the gun handling/holster rules. Nowhere can you find anything which allows access to the trigger except between MR and RIC, except for being at the safety table. Therefor, I would not allow the shooter to leave the stage in that particular condition. It's not as if it can't be quickly rectified by simply closing the zipper on the shooter's bag which can be used to hold the open sleeve. It may seem tough for the libertarians in the crowd, but I believe it is the only option I have lacking a different ruling from DNROI. So a clarification and question (I'm the OP). First, I never take that "sleeve" to a stage in order to un-bag, the sleeve would typically go to the safety area from my car or out of the bag for me to un-bag and holster and visa versa unholster and re-bag. Based on what you are saying above it would be mandatory that if using only a gun bag, the bag must be zippered at all times if it contains a firearm. I have witnessed many open bags with guns in them not in safety areas or under the supervision of an RO, which under your application would constitute a DQ. Please don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to get around any rules I'm just trying to get some clarification, if I need to change my procedure I don't have a problem with that. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 If it's in your range bag (closed) and you take that to a stage or safety table, fine. Just because you see others walk around with an open range bag pocket (as in your second picture) doesn't mean it's a good idea. BTW, I never said DQ outright. All I said is that the rules do not clearly allow that and I would not call RIC in that condition. An open sleeve can easily be interpreted to be a violation based upon access to the trigger. I would not walk around just carrying the gun in the open sleeve. Why take the chance? Although we commonly avoid the word "intent" in this game, in this case, reading the other related rules does seem to imply access to the trigger is the defining line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrispies Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 On 7/2/2017 at 3:24 PM, redfisher said: What about then carrying the bag/gun like this So, to clarify for me now, when I originally responded I read that you had the red bag that you put the gun into, which then went into the bag in this compartment (per "I have an inner sleeve for my shooting bag that I have used for decades to put my empty gun in and then put in my shooting bag") and this size compartment (I assumed) was zipped with the red bag inside. Is that not the case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revoman Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 What about Velcro? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted July 24, 2017 Share Posted July 24, 2017 This is bagged, and this is chopped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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