Jeff226 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 Just now, motosapiens said: My agency still carries 40, as do most other local agencies. If you actually knew the market you would not be the only one who thinks limited needs fixing. Everyone else is happy. If you are right, carry optics will be the biggest division in a year or so...... The switch back to 9mm in law enforcement is well under way. There will be a few holdouts like those that still issue 45 but the fact is that the "market" is far bigger than just LE agencies and it is obvious that you are equally ill equipped to speak about the market or for "everyone else" in USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 1 minute ago, Jeff226 said: it is obvious that you are equally ill equipped to speak about the market or for "everyone else" in USPSA. lol, you are probably right. that's why the majority of posts in this thread agree with you......n't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff226 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 1 minute ago, Racinready300ex said: You're exactly right, it's about participation and fair competition. Limited is one of the most popular divisions. So it would be really dumb for us to make such a drastic change to limited. And there is nothing unfair about Major, everyone can take advantage of it if the choose to. So if the division is popular, and fair why do we need to add another division? The division is popular because you can mod your gun and shoot full capacity magazines. It is unfair because all of us who aren't playing dumb know that there is a scoring advantage for major. I don't see the benefit in playing dumb when it comes to USPSA rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff226 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 2 minutes ago, motosapiens said: lol, you are probably right. that's why the majority of posts in this thread agree with you......n't. Sample size Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N3WWN Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 6 minutes ago, Jeff226 said: At this point, when high capacity 9mms dominate the gun market and they are predominantly used in other shooting events (3 gun, steel, IDPA), it doesn't make sense to build in a scoring disadvantage to a dying caliber in the USPSAs largest division. This is called knowing the market and has nothing to do with giving everyone a trophy. In the end, it needs to be about participation and fair competition, not about keeping 40 S&W on life support as long as possible. I think the argument to get rid of major scoring in Limited is flawed. (Or is the argument to get rid of 40 S&W? The argument seems to change every couple of posts) *shrug* Think of it like this: American football uses a different ball than all other "football" sports worldwide. Therefore, it would appear that the ball used by American football is out of favor. Should American football get rid of the odd shaped ball and use the "football" that the other sports are using? Or perhaps this argument: What do you mean I can't use my ice skates for a roller hockey game?! More people use ice skates when playing other variations of hockey, so I should be able to wear ice skates here at the roller hockey game! Or another way, which is probably more applicable: I can't be competitive if I wear roller skates when playing ice hockey! Everyone else should stop wearing ice skates and wear roller skates! Just because you don't have the gear that allow you to be most competitive in a sport (or in this case, a division), doesn't mean that the division should be changed to meet your current gear. Want to be competitive?! Either obtain the gear and build the skills to use it, or build the skills to be competitive using your sub-optimum gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Jeff226 said: The division is popular because you can mod your gun and shoot full capacity magazines. It is unfair because all of us who aren't playing dumb know that there is a scoring advantage for major. I don't see the benefit in playing dumb when it comes to USPSA rules. Just because Major gets a scoring advantage doesn't mean it isn't fair. If you're serious about doing well in Limited then sell your 9 and get a 40. If you're serious about shooting 3 gun or whatever and want to improve with your 9 while getting trigger time at a USPSA match that's great. Don't go to a USPSA match and demand a new division that caters to you. Edited June 13, 2017 by Racinready300ex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 My recommendation is become a social justice warrior, form an organization called '9mm bullets matter', and fight for the equality and free stuff you deserve! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff226 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 6 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said: Just because Major gets a scoring advantage doesn't mean it isn't fair. If you're serious about doing well in Limited then sell your 9 and get a 40. If you're serious about shooting 3 gun or whatever and want to improve with your 9 while getting trigger time at a USPSA match that's great. Don't go to a USPSA match and demand a new division that caters to you. An obvious advantage would be the definition of unfair wouldn't it? I already have 40s for limited...my personal ability to buy all of the gear I want doesn't affect the obvious problem USPSA is creating for participation and competition in the limited class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff226 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 4 minutes ago, motosapiens said: My recommendation is become a social justice warrior, form an organization called '9mm bullets matter', and fight for the equality and free stuff you deserve! Well, I don't spend a lot of time arguing with comics and those who demand safe spaces for 40 caliber so I'll just say it has been fun!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 40 needs a safe space, and so does 9mm. Real men shoot 45. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 10 minutes ago, Jeff226 said: my personal ability to buy all of the gear I want doesn't affect the obvious problem USPSA is creating for participation and competition in the limited class. Not sure I get this. Everyone serious has a dedicated competition gun. What difference does it make what caliber it is, or whether that caliber is popular among LEO's, neckbeards, or the general public? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanks Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 9 minutes ago, Jeff226 said: An obvious advantage would be the definition of unfair wouldn't it? ... Except, no one is prohibiting any Limited shooter from shooting major. 9mm has an advantage over .40 in magazine capacity and recoil, but scores less out of the A zone. So, pick your strength (or weakness), and shoot the caliber you prefer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff226 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 1 minute ago, motosapiens said: Not sure I get this. Everyone serious has a dedicated competition gun. What difference does it make what caliber it is, or whether that caliber is popular among LEO's, neckbeards, or the general public? If USPSA wants to grow/maintain the sport, they need to keep classes that accomodate the market...the guns that are popular and in use. At some point, people who shoot multiple disciplines aren't going to buy a second dedicated competition 40 caliber pistol just to shoot limited major. As 40 dies, so will the interest in participating in a division that caters to 40. The other guy was telling me to buy a 40 if I wanted to be competitive. I already have multiple 40s and there are those of us who can afford to jump on whatever bandwagon comes up...but that doesn't change the fact that the USPSA could be missing the boat and/or leaving a huge market untapped because of this confusing preference for 40 caliber. When all you have to do is change a few settings in a computer to do a legitimate real time market analysis and the upside is more interest/participation in your sport with no downside...it is a no brainer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 30 minutes ago, Jeff226 said: An obvious advantage would be the definition of unfair wouldn't it? I already have 40s for limited...my personal ability to buy all of the gear I want doesn't affect the obvious problem USPSA is creating for participation and competition in the limited class. As shooters competing against each other we have to make the same choice in our equipment, that makes it fair. Nothing is stopping you from shooting Major, doesn't even have to be a 40. But lets create another hider division just the new guys and the 3-gunners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff226 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 26 minutes ago, tanks said: Except, no one is prohibiting any Limited shooter from shooting major. 9mm has an advantage over .40 in magazine capacity and recoil, but scores less out of the A zone. So, pick your strength (or weakness), and shoot the caliber you prefer. This is assuming the major scoring advantage can be overcome with speed which we all know isn't the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Jeff226 said: If USPSA wants to grow/maintain the sport, they need to keep classes that accomodate the market...the guns that are popular and in use. At some point, people who shoot multiple disciplines aren't going to buy a second dedicated competition 40 caliber pistol just to shoot limited major. As 40 dies, so will the interest in participating in a division that caters to 40. But see, we already have *several* divisions that cater very specifically to 9mm. Yet limited is more popular than those divisions....... Seems like a no-brainer to me. Limited is the ONLY division in which 40 is any kind of competitive advantage..... yet it's the most popular..... I'm pretty good at math, so I can see where this is going..... Edited June 13, 2017 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Jeff226 said: If USPSA wants to grow/maintain the sport, they need to keep classes that accomodate the market...the guns that are popular and in use. At some point, people who shoot multiple disciplines aren't going to buy a second dedicated competition 40 caliber pistol just to shoot limited major. As 40 dies, so will the interest in participating in a division that caters to 40. The other guy was telling me to buy a 40 if I wanted to be competitive. I already have multiple 40s and there are those of us who can afford to jump on whatever bandwagon comes up...but that doesn't change the fact that the USPSA could be missing the boat and/or leaving a huge market untapped because of this confusing preference for 40 caliber. When all you have to do is change a few settings in a computer to do a legitimate real time market analysis and the upside is more interest/participation in your sport with no downside...it is a no brainer. Personally as a USPSA shooter, when I go shoot a different sport (like IDPA) I don't ask them to create a new division just for me. I go shoot ESP with a 40 and my Major uspsa loads. I don't need special treatment for the match to be fair. The other question that I've seen come up here and there is "do we really need more intrest/participation?" Clubs in this area fill up and have waiting lists. One club north of me shoots two day club matches. I don't know that we have a participation problem at this time, and changing one of the most popular divisions seems like a silly way to "grow" the sport. Edited June 13, 2017 by Racinready300ex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutchman195 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said: I went 211PF at the WSSSC last year. (didn't want to repeat the 164.7 of the CCS Championship) Thats spicy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 Is this one of those 'need 50 posts so I can sell something' discussions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 13 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said: Is this one of those 'need 50 posts so I can sell something' discussions? i think it's the quarterly 'noob wants to rewrite the rules to fit his particular gear/preferences' discussion. Didn't seem like it had already been 3 months since the last one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCTaylor Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 56 minutes ago, Jeff226 said: If USPSA wants to grow/maintain the sport, they need to keep classes that accomodate the market...the guns that are popular and in use. At some point, people who shoot multiple disciplines aren't going to buy a second dedicated competition 40 caliber pistol just to shoot limited major. As 40 dies, so will the interest in participating in a division that caters to 40. The other guy was telling me to buy a 40 if I wanted to be competitive. I already have multiple 40s and there are those of us who can afford to jump on whatever bandwagon comes up...but that doesn't change the fact that the USPSA could be missing the boat and/or leaving a huge market untapped because of this confusing preference for 40 caliber. When all you have to do is change a few settings in a computer to do a legitimate real time market analysis and the upside is more interest/participation in your sport with no downside...it is a no brainer. So tell me, how many new people are shooting USPSA due to Carry Optics or PCC? Same line of thought as above. I can say there have been two (2) new shooters at my local club match, a match that averages 70 shooters per month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff226 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 1 minute ago, SCTaylor said: So tell me, how many new people are shooting USPSA due to Carry Optics or PCC? Same line of thought as above. I can say there have been two (2) new shooters at my local club match, a match that averages 70 shooters per month. What does that have to do with allowing limited minor shooters, who already outnumber both of those divisions by far, have a competitive division? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff226 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 57 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said: Personally as a USPSA shooter, when I go shoot a different sport (like IDPA) I don't ask them to create a new division just for me. I go shoot ESP with a 40 and my Major uspsa loads. I don't need special treatment for the match to be fair. The other question that I've seen come up here and there is "do we really need more intrest/participation?" Clubs in this area fill up and have waiting lists. One club north of me shoots two day club matches. I don't know that we have a participation problem at this time, and changing one of the most popular divisions seems like a silly way to "grow" the sport. At one time, a majority of people said why do we need automobiles when we already have all of these horses and buggies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCTaylor Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 That your battle cry of "change it and they will come" or "they're missing out a a YUUUUUGE market segment", is bull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff226 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 9 minutes ago, motosapiens said: i think it's the quarterly 'noob wants to rewrite the rules to fit his particular gear/preferences' discussion. Didn't seem like it had already been 3 months since the last one. I thought you were saying everyone was happy as is?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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