Is major falling out of favor in Limited

[waktasz]

Major is slightly harder to shoot, but you can go faster because you can accept more Charlies.  The HHF on classifiers reflect this.

[rowdyb]

OK, take classifiers out of it. Is it any harder for you to shoot a Bill drill, a plate rack or an El Pres with your Limited set up versus your Prod set up? Ignoring scoring, but just the physical act of shooting and the time it takes to do things.

[waktasz]

Marginally so, but yes. Minor is easy and I shoot a cheater gun in Production

[davidb72]

I don't think major is falling out of favor in limited because of the scoring difference.

You can shoot a little faster and accept more charlies shooting major than you can while shooting minor.

 

[rowdyb]

Ok cool. I have only shot a limited amount of Limited/major pf so I'm not sure I can draw any broad conclusions from my personal experiences.

Edited May 25, 2017 by rowdyb

[Nik Habicht]

Rowdy -- the other thing I see is a bit more of an acceptance of the occasional C hit.  Sure it costs, a point, and the goal is still to shoot as many As as possible, in Limited -- but the 1 point differential (as compared to 2 points when shooting minor) may lead to a slight shift on the time vs. point/risk vs. impact scale......

 

Also  -- what Mike said about reloads.....

 

and Race Holster and holster position.  Are there competitors out there with the same draw and reload speed for Limited and Production gear?  It's possible -- but I don't know that it holds true across the board....

[Chills1994]

On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 9:46 AM, waktasz said:

Major is slightly harder to shoot, but you can go faster because you can accept more Charlies.  The HHF on classifiers reflect this.

 

 

POINT OF ORDER!

 

There is a logical fallacy there, somewhere.

 

If there was a page at USPSA.org that specifically said John Doe, A5859X, shot CM-whatever with the world record setting HHF shooting major (with these many points in so many seconds), then I would believe you.

 

But as far as my recollection goes, some HHFs were derived from actually being shot as some stage at the 201_ Area whatever or the 200_ Whatever Nat's, and there for a while there was a dead nuts on 10% reduction going from open to limited, and then from limited to production.

 

...most transparent administration ever!

 

 

 

EDIT AGAIN:  is there a smart phone app yet for each of the HHFs or the record holders with the highest HFs?  It would be neat if you could walk up to the classifier stage at a local match, punch in your division, what CM you will be shooting, and it spits out who the record holder is for that stage in that division, what the 100% HHF is, and then what your HF needs to be to be a GM, M, or A class run (preferably broken down by points and time).

Edited May 26, 2017 by Chills1994

[Schutzenmeister]

What Chills says is true ... and makes some sense.

 

Unfortunately, what we used to see, on occasion - and when there were somewhat fewer than 7 Divisions, was the annual USPSA Nationals being one match with ALL Division shooting the same stages during the same match.  THEN it was possible and reasonable to draw some rational conclusions about the relative differences between the Divisions.  With our current formula of having only 2 or 3 Divisions (or sometimes ONE) for a given Nationals, there is simply no way to realistically draw statistically supportable conclusions about the competitive differences between each of them.

 

Not grousing about the formats ... Just making an observation.

[cas]

On 5/24/2017 at 4:36 PM, benchmstr said:

power factor is holding the uspsa back.

its a complete joke

 

^ I'm starting to think so. 

 

Yet another move to make all the divisions the same. Which of course is contrary to the idea of "divisions". 

[waktasz]

5 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

 

 

POINT OF ORDER!

 

There is a logical fallacy there, somewhere.

 

If there was a page at USPSA.org that specifically said John Doe, A5859X, shot CM-whatever with the world record setting HHF shooting major (with these many points in so many seconds), then I would believe you.

 

But as far as my recollection goes, some HHFs were derived from actually being shot as some stage at the 201_ Area whatever or the 200_ Whatever Nat's, and there for a while there was a dead nuts on 10% reduction going from open to limited, and then from limited to production.

 

...most transparent administration ever!

 

 

 

EDIT AGAIN:  is there a smart phone app yet for each of the HHFs or the record holders with the highest HFs?  It would be neat if you could walk up to the classifier stage at a local match, punch in your division, what CM you will be shooting, and it spits out who the record holder is for that stage in that division, what the 100% HHF is, and then what your HF needs to be to be a GM, M, or A class run (preferably broken down by points and time).

 

It's not a logical fallacy. It's easier to shoot a higher hit factor on a classifier with a major power gun, therefore, they set the HHF higher for Limited division. How they decided to set them is not terribly relevant

 

Yes, there is an app for that. It doesn't tell you the highest HF ever shot, because USPSA doesn't track that, but it tells you the HHF and what score you need to hit each class.. 

[d_striker]

On 5/24/2017 at 2:36 PM, benchmstr said:

believe whatever you want...but power factor is holding the uspsa back.

 

of course they conformed to major! what choice do you have? the reasoning behind major is even a joke "bigger holes means bleed out faster" if its so practical then why have major in open division? please tell me how all these open division handguns that cant even be traditionally holstered are practical?

 

its a complete joke...and it always will be....it just happens to be accepted by most.

 

the bench

 

Power factor is simply a measure of momentum.  Momentum is one of the primary factors of penetration distance.  

 

A JHP with a PF of 125 simply isn't going to penetrate as far as a JHP with a PF of 165+.  

 

What if we just made PF 160 across the board regardless of caliber?  

 

[Chills1994]

1 hour ago, waktasz said:

 

It's not a logical fallacy. It's easier to shoot a higher hit factor on a classifier with a major power gun, therefore, they set the HHF higher for Limited division. How they decided to set them is not terribly relevant

 

Yes, there is an app for that. It doesn't tell you the highest HF ever shot, because USPSA doesn't track that, but it tells you the HHF and what score you need to hit each class.. 

I guess I didn't make my point clear, sorry.

 

Basically, did someone at USPSA HQ just grab some numbers out of his ass and say, "This is the HHF for CM whatever."?

 

Or said another way has somebody actually  shot 100% or better in limited for all the classifiers?

 

And ultimately my main point that I am drilling down to is that if people are (paying to) being measured against some metric, then that metric needs to be as transparent as possible (as to how it was derived)

[waktasz]

Why?

 

We know what the target is(HHF). Can you hit it or not? It doesn't matter how they decided what that score was (except in the fixed time classifiers, those are bullshit)

[Chills1994]

I can run the 100 meters in say 15 seconds.

 

Then I can easily google "world record time for 100 meters".... hold on a second...

 

9.58 seconds by Usain Bolt, in Berlin in 2009.

 

That was pretty dang easy to do.

 

Now, I know that somebody really ran it, who they were, what their time was, when, and where they did it.

 

Other than that there have been some old timers who had been involved with USPSA for 15 to 25 years (IPSC?) Who always commented about how that section in Front Sight dedicated to newly minted M's and GM's names got bigger after every new CM series got approved and published.

 

So with my tinfoil hat firmly in place, I always pictured somebody at USPSA HQ going, "OH SHIT!  WE SET THE HHFs TOO LOW!"  Then they got "adjusted" .

 

Then there was zhunter's revelation back about 2008 that single stack HHFs were the exact same as L-10's HHFs.

 

I would want to be compared against somebody who actually shot that classifier, not just HQ taking the lazy way out and drawing numbers from some other division and going, "Eh!  Close enough!"

 

So let me turn the tables on you....

 

Do you have a good argument for NOT having a records page?

 

 

Edited May 27, 2017 by Chills1994

[waktasz]

Because it doesn't matter?

 

Because any idiot can rip off a smoking time on a classifier once?

 

Because who cares?

[Chills1994]

That's your argument?

 

Really?

 

Did you forget this is the Brian Enos forums and not DoodieProject?

 

EDIT:  I could swear that the BoD had voted like in the fall of 2011 or 2012 to publish the HHFs.  What happened?  Where is the dedicated page at USPSA.org with the HHFs listed?

 

 

Edited May 28, 2017 by Chills1994

[waktasz]

It's not really an argument as much as asking why you feel so badly that there should be a record book of unvetted single runs on individual classifier stages. It's just meaningless and honestly a waste of time for HQ to pursue.

[Chills1994]

Then why did the BoD vote to release or publish the HHFs a few years ago (only to keep sitting on them)?

 

One of the analogies people use to explain the classifier system to newbs is "It's like a big postal match."

 

If you can't see who placed first, then it's really not a big postal match.

Edited May 28, 2017 by Chills1994

[waktasz]

Publishing the HHF and keeping a running list of the top score of all time are two separate things. One is meaningful, although unnecessary, and the other means nothing.

Edited May 28, 2017 by waktasz

[Chills1994]

Correctamundo!

 

They are two separate things.

 

Either one would lend an air of legitimacy to the classifier system.

 

Having both together would be icing on the cake.

 

Otherwise, in my opinion, the classifier system is just another revenue stream for HQ....a bogus one at that.

 

If you don't want to see "how the sausage gets made", fine, just never click on the HHFs page or the classifier records page.  Pretty simple really.

 

Others, besides you, would like to see the curtain pulled to the side and see that their performance is measured honestly, validly, and reliably.

Edited May 28, 2017 by Chills1994

[mwray]

Publishing the HHF and keeping a running list of the top score of all time are two separate things. One is meaningful, although unnecessary, and the other means nothing.

I've seen too many 115%+ classifiers get throwed out so how can it e accurate

[IHAVEGAS]

On 5/25/2017 at 1:47 PM, rowdyb said:

Ok cool. I have only shot a limited amount of Limited/major pf so I'm not sure I can draw any broad conclusions from my personal experiences.

 

Part of it is about your personal ability to control recoil I think. Some folks have a complete or semi complete combination of good technique and heavy muscle mass and big hands, some others, not so much.

 

If you can really muscle a gun I think limited or ss major is the place to go to take full advantage of that ability. Me, I am shooting production with the heaviest gun I could find  . 

 

 

[GARD72977]

I have noticed several guys at a local club shooting Limited Minor. I dont understand why. They are not in the hunt to win. (Major would not change that)

 

I think some people believe there is an advantage to minor.

[Gooldylocks]

Correctamundo!
 
They are two separate things.
 
Either one would lend an air of legitimacy to the classifier system.
 
Having both together would be icing on the cake.
 
Otherwise, in my opinion, the classifier system is just another revenue stream for HQ....a bogus one at that.
 
If you don't want to see "how the sausage gets made", fine, just never click on the HHFs page or the classifier records page.  Pretty simple really.
 
Others, besides you, would like to see the curtain pulled to the side and see that their performance is measured honestly, validly, and reliably.

I am really confused as to why you think the classifier system is illegitimate as a measuring stick. Even if the only justification they had for setting the 100% was "we think a GM should be able to do it at this based on the math" then who cares. It is a consistent scale for anyone who shoots it.

Would them publishing the HHFs for all the divisions be nice? Sure, but if you spend like 15seconds doing the math you can figure out the HHF for any division. It download the AZshooters app to your phone and it will just tell you what they are.

The only ones I happen to think are illegitimate are some of the various standards out there. Baseball standards, Area 5 standards, etc. The fixed time classifiers need to be fixed so that they aren't all just 100% = all the points, because that is essentially unattainable.

[EEH]

When I shoot limited minor, it because my limited major gun is broke,out of bullets, or just wanting to shoot my 6" 9mm..