Is major falling out of favor in Limited

[bret]

7 minutes ago, Butterpuc said:

 

I also shoot alot of SSTK, this wouldn't hurt my feelings either.  The Rev group may not like this, but there is always ICORE, i guess.

I don't see why revolver shouldn't stay in USPSA as a division, let them add an Optic and shoot carry optic if they want, OFWG's need a place too.

 

[Jeff226]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

I agree we have way more divisions than we need. I personally would get rid of revolver entirely and combine SS L10 and production into a broader 8 major/10 minor division. I think the whole concept of needing to have a separate division for every imaginable gun is a losing one.

 

 

Agree mostly, I was thinking along the lines of:

 

10 major

10 minor

Limited major

Limited Minor

Open

I am not opposed to keeping a revolver division if there is demand.

 

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

Regarding what the vast majority of handgun owners have, the only people I know that have 9mm guns like you describe bought them specifically for idpa or 3-gun, and it's more like a tiny minority.

 

Your personal experience doesn't speak for the entire US.  There are many many times more full size FNs, M&Ps, Glock 17/19/34, CZ, etc, sold and in circulation than 1911s...exponentially more than expensive/custom 2011 style guns.

[Jeff226]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

The vast majority of handgun owners I meet outside of competition shooters have completely stock plastic guns that would fit perfectly into production. They also almost never shoot, and no rule change or new division is going to get them out to a USPSA match. I've offered friends the chance to use my 2011, holster, mags, and free ammo and still can't get them to compete. The best reason I get is "I'm not good enough yet", "when I get a little better I'll try" but they don't practice and don't get better.

We already get a certain number of production and limited minor shooters.  It is easy to see how we would get some number more if limited minor was actually a competitive choice and people with plastic guns could stiple, grind off finger grooves, and use their aftermarket triggers.  We certainly aren't going to lose anybody by doing that...well...maybe one or two major shooters butt hurt that they don't have an unfair advantage over limited minor anymore.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Jeff226

[davidb72]

26 minutes ago, Butterpuc said:

 

I also shoot alot of SSTK, this wouldn't hurt my feelings either.  The Rev group may not like this, but there is always ICORE, i guess.

I also also shoot a lot of SSTK and this wouldn't hurt my feelings either.

Edited June 21, 2017 by davidb72

[motosapiens]

43 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

 

Agree mostly, I was thinking along the lines of:

 

10 major

10 minor

Limited major

Limited Minor

Open

I am not opposed to keeping a revolver division if there is demand.

 

 

Your personal experience doesn't speak for the entire US.  There are many many times more full size FNs, M&Ps, Glock 17/19/34, CZ, etc, sold and in circulation than 1911s...exponentially more than expensive/custom 2011 style guns.

right, but most of them aren't modified beyond being able to compete in production or CO, and if they are, bummer. All serious competitors get a serious competition only gun. what people buy and carry before they get into competition is almost entirely irrelevant.

 

why don't you want to have open minor too? and open 10 major and minor? think about all those poor souls with ported glocks. Aren't we morally required to provide a place for them to use their crappy plastic ported gun in competition?

[motosapiens]

Here's an idea; if you think USPSA is headed the wrong direction, why not do what bill wilson did? start your own sport, and prove your ideas right by being much more successful...........  That seems more constructive than just whining for other people to make stuff the way you personally prefer it.

Edited June 21, 2017 by motosapiens

[Jeff226]

12 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

right, but most of them aren't modified beyond being able to compete in production or CO, and if they are, bummer. All serious competitors get a serious competition only gun. what people buy and carry before they get into competition is almost entirely irrelevant.

 

why don't you want to have open minor too? and open 10 major and minor? think about all those poor souls with ported glocks. Aren't we morally required to provide a place for them to use their crappy plastic ported gun in competition?

How many times do I have to mention stipling, grip reductions/changes, and custom triggers?  Those are modifications that disqualify them from production.  Who says expensive 1911s and reloads should be the only way to compete?

 

By the time you get to open, I agree with your narrow minded approach to the whole USPSA...major and minor can shoot together in open and should bring whatever the current fad is or whatever the scoring formula favors.

[N3WWN]

12 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

How many times do I have to mention stipling, grip reductions/changes, and custom triggers?  Those are modifications that disqualify them from production.  Who says expensive 1911s and reloads should be the only way to compete?

 

Those folks with stippling, grip reductions/changes and custom triggers should drop another $300-$500 for a stock, off the shelf gun to play within the rules of a division with similar guns.  You don't need an expensive gun or to reload to compete in the divisions where those guns belong.

 

A couple of hundred bucks is not much for a dedicated competition gun that is of the same model or family as their heavily modded carry/3gun/plinking gun.

 

Your arguments are for changing one USPSA division to better fit guns which could be competitive in another division EXCEPT for the fact that the owner chose to mod the gun so it is no longer legal in the appropriate division(s) for the gun.

 

If I make the choice to put a comp on one of my 40S&W Limited guns, but no optic, I'm not going to ask for Limited to be modified to allow comps.   If I want to shoot that gun at USPSA matches, I would shoot it in Open, where it is legal to do so, regardless of the competitive disadvantage of not having a red-dot.  For Limited, I'd remove the comp to make it Limited legal or get myself a different gun for Limited.

[Racinready300ex]

22 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

How many times do I have to mention stipling, grip reductions/changes, and custom triggers?  Those are modifications that disqualify them from production.  Who says expensive 1911s and reloads should be the only way to compete?

 

 

You can keep mentioning it, but you're the one wanting to cater to the "vast majority". Well the majority of people outside of competitors don't do any of that stuff.

[Jeff226]

20 minutes ago, N3WWN said:

 

Those folks with stippling, grip reductions/changes and custom triggers should drop another $300-$500 for a stock, off the shelf gun to play within the rules of a division with similar guns.  You don't need an expensive gun or to reload to compete in the divisions where those guns belong.

 

A couple of hundred bucks is not much for a dedicated competition gun that is of the same model or family as their heavily modded carry/3gun/plinking gun.

 

Your arguments are for changing one USPSA division to better fit guns which could be competitive in another division EXCEPT for the fact that the owner chose to mod the gun so it is no longer legal in the appropriate division(s) for the gun.

 

If I make the choice to put a comp on one of my 40S&W Limited guns, but no optic, I'm not going to ask for Limited to be modified to allow comps.   If I want to shoot that gun at USPSA matches, I would shoot it in Open, where it is legal to do so, regardless of the competitive disadvantage of not having a red-dot.  For Limited, I'd remove the comp to make it Limited legal or get myself a different gun for Limited.

 

Quit confusing yourself.

 

This has nothing to do with limited minor guns that would fit into production "EXCEPT for the fact" mods were made within the rules of limited.  Limited minor guns don't fit into production..should be obvious.  

 

People that own modified minor guns that fit limited shouldn't have to go buy another 3-500 pistol to shoot production if they don't want to shoot production...that is dumb.

 

My argument is simple, minor should be competitive in limited or have its own division.  Scoring imbalance makes minor non-competitive in limited so...

 

 

 

 

[Jeff226]

41 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

You can keep mentioning it, but you're the one wanting to cater to the "vast majority". Well the majority of people outside of competitors don't do any of that stuff.

 

Not true but even more importantly,,what is your point?  If competitors want to do that, they can't sign up for production...that is my point.

[motosapiens]

11 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

 

 

 

People that own modified minor guns that fit limited shouldn't have to go buy another 3-500 pistol to shoot production if they don't want to shoot production...that is dumb.

 

 

this is the fundamental point on which you are mistaken. Anyone who wants to compete seriously is *going* to go buy another gun to shoot competitively, whether or not you think they *should* have to do so. That is a known fact. It's also good for the economy, and helps make america great again. Why do you hate America?

[Racinready300ex]

Jeff hates America

[N3WWN]

45 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

this is the fundamental point on which you are mistaken. Anyone who wants to compete seriously is *going* to go buy another gun to shoot competitively, whether or not you think they *should* have to do so. That is a known fact. 

 

+1

 

Being able to shoot Limited minor is more inclusive than not allowing it at all. 

 

Consider Limited minor as a gateway drug to Limited major.  You have a Production gun and want to load the magazines to full capacity for whatever reason, be it being bad at reloads, preferring to do fewer reloads, or an injury/disability which makes reloads more difficult, etc... or you have a gun that doesn't fit into the Production rules due to grip reductions/changes and custom triggers... and want to test the water in Limited to see if thats's where you want to play.  Provided the gun fits into the Limited equipment rules, have at it!  Have fun!  Getting serious about Limited?  Maybe you'll buy a Limited major gun, maybe you won't.

 

The point is that you don't have to buy a Limited major gun to try Limited out or to have fun shooting it indefinitely.  You can even be competitive shooting minor in a mixed minor/major division.

The argument in your mind that there's a big problem that the top guys at Nationals shoot major and nobody in contention for winning shoots minor still boils down to the couple of percent that folks have been talking about.  

 

If you're in contention for winning Nationals, you're looking for every fraction of a percent improvement.  Those few percent advantage that Limited major has over Limited minor can be the difference between 1st place and 3rd place.  

Those few percent do not define the difference between 1st place and 50th place.

 

I typically shoot Limited major, but shot Single Stack minor at Battle in the Bluegrass this year.   From my past experience shooting the same match in both SS minor and Limited major, I know that my match hit factor will be about 0.3HF lower in minor than major.  My minor times would be about the same or a little slower (due to added reloads), but I'd only lose a handful of points (less than 20 over a 5 stage match).  At BITB, this would be the difference for me of of 72% to about 76% for the division, and I'm just a B-class scrub.  I would not magically win by simply switching to major.

 

You could also shoot major PF ammo in Production, if you want, but you'll be at a disadvantage due to the additional recoil and all-minor scoring.  This is the opposite side of the coin your argument is minted on;  If you and all of your friends had 40 or 45 cal Limited major guns that could play in Production (XDm, Glock, M&P, etc), you'd be complaining that there's no major scoring.

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, Jeff226 said:

 

Not true but even more importantly,,what is your point?  If competitors want to do that, they can't sign up for production...that is my point.

 

I believe it is true, 99%  of my friends that owns a handgun and don't compete with it have left their gun stock. Unless you have data that can prove other wise I would guess that is pretty typical. In fact, most gun owners don't even know what stippling and grip reductions are. Guys on internet forums aren't your average gun owner.

 

People can do what ever they want to their firearms, we can't be expected to have a division for everything. If they like what USPSA has to offer they'll come shoot, if they want to be competitive they'll have to buy appropriate gear. And we all know gear isn't what keeps people from shooting, and it certainly isn't what separates winners from losers.

[Husker95]

1 hour ago, N3WWN said:

Consider Limited minor as a gateway drug to Limited major.  You have a Production gun and want to load the magazines to full capacity for whatever reason, be it being bad at reloads, preferring to do fewer reloads, or an injury/disability which makes reloads more difficult, etc... or you have a gun that doesn't fit into the Production rules due to grip reductions/changes and custom triggers... and want to test the water in Limited to see if thats's where you want to play.  Provided the gun fits into the Limited equipment rules, have at it!  Have fun!  Getting serious about Limited?  Maybe you'll buy a Limited major gun, maybe you won't.

This.  This is how I get junior shooters started in the sport.  Grab a G-17 and 3 mags, some Uncle Mike's plastic gear and toss them into Limited Minor.  They don't have to worry about reloads as much so stage planning is a little easier and they have a blast.  At this entry point they neither know nor care what points they are giving up.  If they decide to stick with the sport then you make the choice to stay with the G-17 and go into Prod to be more productive or daddy gets them a dedicated 40 cal to shoot Lim Maj.  Simple.

[CarlB86]

Prior to competitive shooting, and a very very young me.  I always saw .40 as a pretty pointless round compared to 9mm. Less capacity, double the cost, doesn't kill things any deader. I saw how it was the go to round for limited and was always one of my barriers to entry into USPSA. Didn't want to spend so much money buying .40, buying an STi Edge, and also wasn't at a point in my life. Had dreams in the back of my head of getting a Dillon and getting into Limited Major.

 

After graduating college, getting a career, then spending a few years doing SCCA Solo and LeMons I figured I might actually be at a point to afford competition shooting, as it is way cheaper than racing cars. I'd had a G34 for the occasional local steel match. Then discovered some USPSA nearby that I had never know about and was on my way to shoot production. Even bought a silly 2.5lb production pistol! I now focus on production division USPSA when I am not doing racing, due to the low cost.

 

Right now I feed two guns since my wife shoots with me. My cost on reloading is .123 cents per round using what I consider pretty good components. Double this for any practice or match since there are two of us.

 

Anyway, .40 still seems like something I wouldn't get into even though I could probably afford it. Less range brass available to purchase, plus I don't own a single .40 pistol and would never consider carrying one. I'd be stocking another caliber that would be specific to shooting limited minor. Probably end up with a dedicated .40 reloading press. Even though I would love to shoot 140mm mags and a 2011. I'd never buy a 2011 in 9mm since I'd always feel that minor scoring was putting me at a disadvantage. 

 

 

This long story leads me to my question. Do most limited shooters prefer the .40 for carry/defense or is it purely a competition round for them? (in my mind it is competition only, but I'm guessing there must be a following for it)

[Jeff226]

15 minutes ago, CarlB86 said:

Prior to competitive shooting, and a very very young me.  I always saw .40 as a pretty pointless round compared to 9mm. Less capacity, double the cost, doesn't kill things any deader. I saw how it was the go to round for limited and was always one of my barriers to entry into USPSA. Didn't want to spend so much money buying .40, buying an STi Edge, and also wasn't at a point in my life. Had dreams in the back of my head of getting a Dillon and getting into Limited Major.

 

After graduating college, getting a career, then spending a few years doing SCCA Solo and LeMons I figured I might actually be at a point to afford competition shooting, as it is way cheaper than racing cars. I'd had a G34 for the occasional local steel match. Then discovered some USPSA nearby that I had never know about and was on my way to shoot production. Even bought a silly 2.5lb production pistol! I now focus on production division USPSA when I am not doing racing, due to the low cost.

 

Right now I feed two guns since my wife shoots with me. My cost on reloading is .123 cents per round using what I consider pretty good components. Double this for any practice or match since there are two of us.

 

Anyway, .40 still seems like something I wouldn't get into even though I could probably afford it. Less range brass available to purchase, plus I don't own a single .40 pistol and would never consider carrying one. I'd be stocking another caliber that would be specific to shooting limited minor. Probably end up with a dedicated .40 reloading press. Even though I would love to shoot 140mm mags and a 2011. I'd never buy a 2011 in 9mm since I'd always feel that minor scoring was putting me at a disadvantage. 

 

 

This long story leads me to my question. Do most limited shooters prefer the .40 for carry/defense or is it purely a competition round for them? (in my mind it is competition only, but I'm guessing there must be a following for it)

 

Most limited shooters prefer 40 because it gives them an unfair advantage over 9mm.  

 

Most 40 shooters don't want that unfair disadvantage addressed because they feel like shooting gimped downloaded 40s in Limited makes them more macho than people who shoot the same exact guns in 9mm because factory ammo is cheap, readily available, and they don't have to sit in front of a reloader all week.  

 

Most limited shooters carry 9mms for self defense if they carry at all.

[N3WWN]

9 minutes ago, CarlB86 said:

This long story leads me to my question. Do most limited shooters prefer the .40 for carry/defense or is it purely a competition round for them? (in my mind it is competition only, but I'm guessing there must be a following for it)

 

Personally, I carry .35x caliber firearms (380 ACP, 9mm, 38 Special and 357 Magnum), but that's only because I don't yet have any carry guns in 40.  

 

I love 40, though.  Period.   It's almost as cheap to reload as 9mm and a hoot to shoot!  My next carry gun will likely be some kind of 40 (XDs or XD Mod 2, probably).  

 

My experience tells me that 40 is easier to get a gun to run properly, or it may be that 40 brass is more consistent or perhaps there are varying chamber tolerances between my 9mm guns.    I think ever 380 or 9mm gun I've ever owned needed some kind of change to the ammo I was loading to work reliably.  Would shooting factory ammo solve that problem?  Sure!  But I like to load my own simply because pride and cost.

 

Reloading of 40 is a pleasure compared to reloading 9 (again, for me):

No culling of stepped 40 brass as I've never seen any.  

No culling of "thick walled" 40 brass as I've never seen any.  

I also don't recall seeing any crimped primers with any 40 brass.

 

I mentioned earlier that I shoot Single Stack minor, but as soon as I can decide on a SS-legal 1911 in 40, I'll be picking one of those up for competition since I can shoot SS minor or SS major with a 40 cal SS-legal 1911.  

 

If I'm out of town, my wife grabs one of my 40 competition guns, loads it up with factory defense ammo and keeps that nearby in addition to the usual .35x caliber firearms.  Why?  Even with her small hands and petite stature, she can shoot a 40 better than the smaller calibers.

[Jeff226]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I believe it is true, 99%  of my friends that owns a handgun and don't compete with it have left their gun stock. Unless you have data that can prove other wise I would guess that is pretty typical. In fact, most gun owners don't even know what stippling and grip reductions are. Guys on internet forums aren't your average gun owner.

 

People can do what ever they want to their firearms, we can't be expected to have a division for everything. If they like what USPSA has to offer they'll come shoot, if they want to be competitive they'll have to buy appropriate gear. And we all know gear isn't what keeps people from shooting, and it certainly isn't what separates winners from losers.

You must have the same 3 friends as motosapien. Gear is definitely what separates the winners from the losers...why would you make a silly statement like that when everybody else is saying you need the right gear and have to shoot major to win?

[DukeEB]

52 minutes ago, CarlB86 said:

 

This long story leads me to my question. Do most limited shooters prefer the .40 for carry/defense or is it purely a competition round for them? 

It is a competitive round for me. It is useful though, as I can use the same bullets for 10mm 

I carry 1911 45's or a colt  380 depending on environmental factors

[IDescribe]

1 hour ago, CarlB86 said:

Do most limited shooters prefer the .40 for carry/defense or is it purely a competition round for them? (in my mind it is competition only, but I'm guessing there must be a following for it)

People who compete in the division to win shoot .40 because it both has the highest available round count at the max magazine length limit for the division that also meets the minimum caliber requirement for major power factor, which has the scoring advantage.  That's it.  .40 is chosen by those competing in it as a sport because it's the best caliber for the division from a competitive standpoint.  

 

That's people who are playing to win.  There is also certainly a group of people who carry .40 who use Limited as a way to train with their carry or duty weapon.  There are certainly people who do that, but those people are not in it to win it.  They're in it for training.  Then there are a handful of people who shoot some caliber other than .40 for a variety of reasons.  Some want to shoot their 9mm production-oriented gun at full mag capacity.  They're not competitive at minor PF, but they're not in it to win it either.  It's training and recreation for them.  Or they're just starting and it's a way into the sport.  Those people are probably shooting production guns and just don't own enough mags or mag holsters.

[IDescribe]

That's really the joke of this thread.  Anyone who can afford to shoot enough to seriously compete to win can afford to buy a gun appropriate to their division.  So all this hubbub revolves around people who aren't playing to win anyway.  

[aandabooks]

If you really want to shoot a 9mm bullet at major PF, just get a .357 Sig.  

 

Don't see the need for another division.  We have 5 out of 8 of our divisions with minor/major scoring.  Shoot minor and get more ammo capacity or shoot major and get better points.  It is really that simple.

[IDescribe]

Another really simple solution to this issue would be to just disallow anything smaller than .40 in Limited.  Problem solved.