Is major falling out of favor in Limited

[motosapiens]

On 6/19/2017 at 9:35 AM, bret said:

I have 2011's in .40 and 9mm, there is a noticeable difference in recoil on a .40 shooting major and a 9mm shooting minor in the same type of gun.

I have a G34 and G35, a lot less recoil when shooting the G34 compared to the G35.

I have 1911's in 9mm, .40 and.45, a lot less recoil in the 9mm than the .40 and.45.

I am 6' 3" 195 lbs, I am sure it is more noticeable with smaller people or people with smaller hands.

 

of course there's a 'lot less recoil', but does that translate to significant differences in shooting speed? for me, it does not generally appear to do so.

[bret]

4 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

of course there's a 'lot less recoil', but does that translate to significant differences in shooting speed? for me, it does not generally appear to do so.

For smaller shooters or women it does.

Ashley shot Minor in Nationals, was 63rd overall, not bad for a B class shooter, shooting Minor, I asked her why she shot Minor, she said she has small hands and the constant shooting of major causes her problems, she was shooting Infinity back then, so even a heavy limited gun shooting major was an issue for her.

If they eliminate Major/Minor scoring, I think people will start shooting 9mm, I can get an extra 3 rounds in a magazine, so instead of starting with 20+1 in .40, I can shoot 23+1 in 9mm.

But I like the way steel goes down with major.

I think having Major/Minor scoring is a good idea, let the shooter decide what works best for them.

[motosapiens]

18 minutes ago, bret said:

For smaller shooters or women it does.
 

 

I don't know ashley, but mrs moto started shooting last year. we started her shooting ss minor cuz we had the gun. she switched to limited major a couple months ago and shoots just as fast and just as well. OTOH, she is very athletic for a small woman, and her hands are at least medium-sized. I suspect that if her hands were any smaller she might have to look at a grip reduction in order to get enough of a grip to manage the recoil. but whatever, like you, i think it ain't broke. people can shoot what they want and we shouldn't be changing a division that everyone likes to suit a handful of smaller or weaker or more sensitive people. if they want to shoot one of the common 9mm duty/carry/defense pistols out there they can choose between 2 divisions that don't favor 40 major and one that does. How can anyone not like choice?

 

And what kind of uproar would it cause to suddenly make all the tens of thousands of 40 competition guns suddenly uncompetitive? most of these guns were purchased at great cost.

[PatJones]

There's always a simple solution -- limit capacity to whatever a 141.25 can hold in .40, and keep major/minor where they are......

I think expecting ROs to count to 22 shots is a little unreasonable.

[davidb72]

7 hours ago, PatJones said:

 

I think expecting ROs to count to 22 shots is a little unreasonable.

 

I thought the same when I read that.

I have enough trouble remembering to count to 10 or 11 when I have to.

[tanks]

On 6/19/2017 at 2:58 PM, ktm300 said:

Pretty sure what he meant was he could shoot the major gun as fast as the minor gun and just as accurate as long as his fundamentals were really good.  When he didn't get a great grip or was in an odd position the major gun was harder to shoot.

 

I hope you realize thatwe both said basically the same thing.  

[Jeff226]

11 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

I don't know ashley, but mrs moto started shooting last year. we started her shooting ss minor cuz we had the gun. she switched to limited major a couple months ago and shoots just as fast and just as well. OTOH, she is very athletic for a small woman, and her hands are at least medium-sized. I suspect that if her hands were any smaller she might have to look at a grip reduction in order to get enough of a grip to manage the recoil. but whatever, like you, i think it ain't broke. people can shoot what they want and we shouldn't be changing a division that everyone likes to suit a handful of smaller or weaker or more sensitive people. if they want to shoot one of the common 9mm duty/carry/defense pistols out there they can choose between 2 divisions that don't favor 40 major and one that does. How can anyone not like choice?

 

And what kind of uproar would it cause to suddenly make all the tens of thousands of 40 competition guns suddenly uncompetitive? most of these guns were purchased at great cost.

So why is it ok that limited minor guns are not competitive but you are convinced 40 guns have to stay competitive?  

 

The 2 divisions that "don't favor 40" don't allow limited minor guns.  One requires an optic and the other has a lot of nonsense rules that eliminate most actual carry guns.

 

Limited minor deserves its own division just as much or more than revolver, PCC, and carry optics.  Using your logic, I wonder why we have so many divisions for 1911 variants that require reloading  to get the best performance:

 

Revolver - who cares

Production - some odd mix of rules that supposedly favors carry guns but rules on mods disqualify most people's carry guns

Single stack - favors expensive 1911s, major gets competitive advantage over factory ammo from reloading, DVC may actually work here

Limited - favors expensive double stack 1911s, major required to be competitive, major gets competitive advantage over factory ammo from reloading

Limited 10 - see limited - no need to *pretend* there is any capacity advantage for minor to balance DVC in this one

Open - favors really expensive double stack 1911s, major required to be competitive, reloading required to be competitive.

PCC - see revolver

Carry optics - Supposedly production with required optic, allows more of the mods that disqualify many people's carry guns, although most people don't put optics on their carry guns - probably "see revolver" in the end.

 

A vast majority of handgun owners have 9mm high capacity guns with stippling, grip changes, aftermarket triggers, and shoot factory ammo

1911s and 40 caliber have most likely seen their peak in popularity/market share (40 is definitely on the decline)

USPSA way overemphasizes expensive 1911s, the dying 40 caliber, and you are forced to reload in you want to min/max in most divisions

The great thinkers in this forum think all that adds up to "choice", "benefits current and potential new customers", and the continued health of the sport.  

 

Pure comedy.

[Jeff226]

12 hours ago, bret said:

I think having Major/Minor scoring is a good idea, let the shooter decide what works best for them.

I agree with this, I just think limited minor should be its own division so the shooter actually has a choice and can still be competitive.  Having the choice to shoot minor with a scoring disadvantage that even the best limited shooters can't overcome isn't exactly a choice.

 

The "real men" can win limited major and Ashley, the other women, children, and girly men can all try to win limited minor.

 

The computer can hold 9 divisions and if match directors don't want to give out so many prizes then they can require minimum participation for prizes to be awarded.  We could probably even trade one new division for about 2 classes.  One could argue B-D classes are the real participation trophy crowd...not limited minor shooters. Why does anybody in B-D deserve a trophy? 

[teros135]

This is, indeed, great comedy.

 

Like Sundance said, "You just keep thinkin', Butch.  That's what you're good at."

[bret]

Just now, Jeff226 said:

I agree with this, I just think limited minor should be its own division so the shooter actually has a choice and can still be competitive.  Having the choice to shoot minor with a scoring disadvantage that even the best limited shooters can't overcome isn't exactly a choice.

 

The "real men" can win limited major and Ashley, the other women, children, and girly men can all try to win limited minor.

 

The computer can hold 9 divisions and if match directors don't want to give out so many prizes then they can require minimum participation for prizes to be awarded.  We could probably even trade one new division for about 2 classes.  One could argue B-D classes are the real participation trophy crowd...not limited minor shooters. Why does anybody in B-D deserve a trophy? 

I am sure Ashley an 18 year old girl that weighs 100lbs can smoke you shooting any game you want to try, even though she shoots limited Minor, she took Silver in IPSC World Rifle Shoot.

What have you won?

[Jeff226]

Just now, bret said:

I am sure Ashley an 18 year old girl that weighs 100lbs can smoke you shooting any game you want to try, even though she shoots limited Minor, she took Silver in IPSC World Rifle Shoot.

What have you won?

 

Ok, good news.  So even Ashly can't overcome the scoring problem in limited as good as she is...so this is a perfect example of why limited minor should be its own divison. 

 

I win at life.  

[bret]

Just now, Jeff226 said:

 

Ok, good news.  So even Ashly can't overcome the scoring problem in limited as good as she is...so this is a perfect example of why limited minor should be its own divison. 

 

I win at life.  

wrong, she shoots minor because it helps her, others that beat her are shooting major.

 

[Jeff226]

Just now, bret said:

wrong, she shoots minor because it helps her, others that beat her are shooting major.

 

 

Seriously, how can you be this bad at forums?  No kidding she got beat by people shooting major...that is what I have been talking about for 14 pages.

[bret]

Just now, Jeff226 said:

 

Seriously, how can you be this bad at forums?  No kidding she got beat by people shooting major...that is what I have been talking about for 14 pages.

if you can't handle major, stick with minor like the women, children and girly men.

[Jeff226]

5 minutes ago, bret said:

if you can't handle major, stick with minor like the women, children and girly men.

 

That was sarcasm directed at motosapiens ideas about who shoots limited minor.  Real men was in quotes, that is called a clue.

 

One example:

 

12 hours ago, motosapiens said:

we shouldn't be changing a division that everyone likes to suit a handful of smaller or weaker or more sensitive people. 

 

Try to keep up...I admit sarcasm is hard to spot in text but this isn't the first time you have struggled.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Jeff226

[ChuckS]

To quote the late Eddie Rhodes: " 9mm makes you weak."

[IHAVEGAS]

7 hours ago, ChuckS said:

To quote the late Eddie Rhodes: " 9mm makes you weak."

 

Wonder what he was compensating for? 

Edited June 21, 2017 by IHAVEGAS

[Scott Steele]

18 pages... really?
This forum is a great place to share information but this is so far the #1 troll I've witnessed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Racinready300ex]

9 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

A vast majority of handgun owners have 9mm high capacity guns with stippling, grip changes, aftermarket triggers, and shoot factory ammo

1911s and 40 caliber have most likely seen their peak in popularity/market share (40 is definitely on the decline)

USPSA way overemphasizes expensive 1911s, the dying 40 caliber, and you are forced to reload in you want to min/max in most divisions

The great thinkers in this forum think all that adds up to "choice", "benefits current and potential new customers", and the continued health of the sport.  

 

Pure comedy.

 

The vast majority of handgun owners I meet outside of competition shooters have completely stock plastic guns that would fit perfectly into production. They also almost never shoot, and no rule change or new division is going to get them out to a USPSA match. I've offered friends the chance to use my 2011, holster, mags, and free ammo and still can't get them to compete. The best reason I get is "I'm not good enough yet", "when I get a little better I'll try" but they don't practice and don't get better.

[SCTaylor]

Come on Scott this is serious stuff! No trolling at all!

[motosapiens]

9 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

So why is it ok that limited minor guns are not competitive but you are convinced 40 guns have to stay competitive?  

 

The 2 divisions that "don't favor 40" don't allow limited minor guns.  One requires an optic and the other has a lot of nonsense rules that eliminate most actual carry guns.

 

Limited minor deserves its own division just as much or more than revolver, PCC, and carry optics.  Using your logic, I wonder why we have so many divisions for 1911 variants that require reloading  to get the best performance:

<snip>

A vast majority of handgun owners have 9mm high capacity guns with stippling, grip changes, aftermarket triggers, and shoot factory ammo <snip>

Pure comedy.

It is pure comedy, but not in the way you think.

 

I agree we have way more divisions than we need. I personally would get rid of revolver entirely and combine SS L10 and production into a broader 8 major/10 minor division. I think the whole concept of needing to have a separate division for every imaginable gun is a losing one.

 

Regarding what the vast majority of handgun owners have, the only people I know that have 9mm guns like you describe bought them specifically for idpa or 3-gun, and it's more like a tiny minority.

[motosapiens]

18 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

The vast majority of handgun owners I meet outside of competition shooters have completely stock plastic guns that would fit perfectly into production. They also almost never shoot, and no rule change or new division is going to get them out to a USPSA match. I've offered friends the chance to use my 2011, holster, mags, and free ammo and still can't get them to compete. The best reason I get is "I'm not good enough yet", "when I get a little better I'll try" but they don't practice and don't get better.

 

this is also my experience, except many of them have only compact models. perhaps we need a new production compact division so those droves of people won't be at a competitive disadvantage.

 

I think a division that is close to what people actually own is not a terrible thing, as a way to get them started, but it's pretty obvious that every serious competitor buys a gun specifically for competition and doesn't use it for duty, carry, home defense, etc.... It really doesn't matter what people who don't shoot limited division already own. everyone who shoots limited seriously owns a proper limited gun and is happy.

 

nonetheless, this is a very entertaining troll, and it has helped take my mind off some unpleasant family business this week, so I appreciate everyone's cooperation in dragging this out.

Edited June 21, 2017 by motosapiens

[motosapiens]

9 hours ago, bret said:

if you can't handle major, stick with minor like the women, children and girly men.

 

hey don't forget the elderly and disabled, and air force vets.....  

[Husker95]

7 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I agree we have way more divisions than we need. I personally would get rid of revolver entirely and combine SS L10 and production into a broader 8 major/10 minor division. I think the whole concept of needing to have a separate division for every imaginable gun is a losing one.

 

 

That idea does not suck.  I shoot a lot of SSTK and this would not bother me at all.  I can see the logic.

[Butterpuc]

1 hour ago, Husker95 said:

 

That idea does not suck.  I shoot a lot of SSTK and this would not bother me at all.  I can see the logic.

 

I also shoot alot of SSTK, this wouldn't hurt my feelings either.  The Rev group may not like this, but there is always ICORE, i guess.