Elbows.....straight / bent / rotated....what is preferred for faster and more accurate shooting?

[Ozy]

Streiaght and locked for me...

[B585]

I recently have been experimenting with grip, elbows, shoulders, etc.   I can't say my shoulders are completely externally rotated, but elbows are out more and I am concentrating on applying most of my gripping force as high as possible and there was a marked improvement in my recoil control.  The best comparison I make to a pro is Sebas Pfilho.  Once I tried it, that seems to work really well for me.  Does anyone see problems with long-term joint health with that technique?

[rowdyb]

On 5/22/2017 at 0:04 PM, wanttolearn said:

thanks..that helps

 

i guess if i really identify my concerns

1)i don't want to have long term problems with my joints in the future, it looks like the locked arms/elbows would take their toll.  

2)i want to improve my speed, i'm told i rely too much on making sure my sights line up before taking the shot

#1 to me has to do more with your volume of shooting, rather than body mechanics, and whether most of it is major or minor. it's all about volume.

#2 has nothing to do with how you hold the gun. it has to do with your vision and brain.

 

but hey, i could be wrong. my arms are fairly straight, i have one eye closed. (my arms do not hang straight naturally and have a good bit of bend. what tailors call "athletic arm")

 

people aren't beating me at matches because of how i hold the gun. until that becomes the case i'm working on other things. definitely with the jakedevita concept of pushing hard as a key component of improvement.

Edited June 29, 2017 by rowdyb

[wanttolearn]

thank you for posting that....I'm working hard at improving

[Broncman]

After doing a lot of dry fire training lately from Ben Stoeger s Dry Fire Reloaded,

I noticed when I keep my elbow straight, my dot stays much more steady on a dry fire trigger pull. 

 

With elbows bent, it moves more...

 

This is the drill where you go ahead and aim with the buzzer on random, then try to pull the trigger during the duration of the start buzzer.

 

Try it! 

[Jake Di Vita]

4 hours ago, Broncman said:

After doing a lot of dry fire training lately from Ben Stoeger s Dry Fire Reloaded,

I noticed when I keep my elbow straight, my dot stays much more steady on a dry fire trigger pull. 

 

With elbows bent, it moves more...

 

This is the drill where you go ahead and aim with the buzzer on random, then try to pull the trigger during the duration of the start buzzer.

 

Try it! 

 

Well the primary reason to not lock your arms is locked arms sucks for recoil management. If you're moving the gun off target while pulling the trigger (whether your arms are straight or not) that is a separate problem..

Edited June 29, 2017 by Jake Di Vita

[Broncman]

Recoil? Not really a problem for me,. Or at least I do not perceive it  to be. Whatis a problem is my short arms and fat hands. With my arms are bent, I  get more stress in my wrist and grips. For me, the most relaxed and controled is straight arms.  I also feel that natural point of aim is more consistent with a straight arm.

 

I seem to get the most muscle isolation for my index finger with my arm straight

 

Still probably doing it wrong. YMMV.

[Jake Di Vita]

17 minutes ago, Broncman said:

Recoil? Not really a problem for me,. Or at least I do not perceive it  to be.

 

Maybe it isn't a problem but no area of anyone's skill will ever be fully developed. No matter how good you get at something, there is always something about it that you could do better. I think for the vast majority of people locking their arms will reduce their ability to manage recoil. It's going to have to be a large benefit to outweigh the loss in recoil management for the change to be worthwhile in my opinion.

 

19 minutes ago, Broncman said:

Whatis a problem is my short arms and fat hands. With my arms are bent, I  get more stress in my wrist and grips. For me, the most relaxed and controled is straight arms.  I also feel that natural point of aim is more consistent with a straight arm.

 

Physical relaxation is not something I want any part of when I'm shooting a pistol, so that isn't even a factor in my decision. Natural point of aim is something that can be trained. Just because it feels more consistent with straight arms for you right now doesn't mean it always will. When you say you "get more stress in my wrist and grips" I don't really know what that means. My grip is extremely stressful on my wrists and hands.

 

You gotta be real careful going with what feels natural because that feeling is pretty much never congruent with optimal performance. It may be counter intuitive, but the better I got the more uncomfortable the act of shooting became. As you get better your technique will evolve and so will what feels natural to you.

 

35 minutes ago, Broncman said:

I seem to get the most muscle isolation for my index finger with my arm straight

 

Still probably doing it wrong. YMMV.

 

Also something that is trained.

 

There is also more to executing an accurate shot than trigger finger isolation....I think the concept of isolating only the trigger finger and only applying pressure straight back to the rear of the gun is a bit over emphasized. While it isn't bad advice, there's a lot more to it than that...especially for the game we play where speed matters.

 

 

[Broncman]

You have some valid points, but I wholeheartedly disagree with you on the relaxation point. Years ago when I was into body building, I learned a lot about muscle isolation and relaxation so to speak. I want to pull the trigger with my finger, not my arm or hand!

 

My hand is then freed up to focus on what I want those muscles to do.

 

I can be strong without being tense. That is the relaxed I am referring too...

 

[Jake Di Vita]

19 minutes ago, Broncman said:

You have some valid points, but I wholeheartedly disagree with you on the relaxation point. Years ago when I was into body building, I learned a lot about muscle isolation and relaxation so to speak. I want to pull the trigger with my finger, not my arm or hand!

 

My hand is then freed up to focus on what I want those muscles to do.

 

I can be strong without being tense. That is the relaxed I am referring too...

 

 

You say strong but not tense is the relaxed you're talking about. At what percentage of strength application do you feel you change from relaxed to tense? Relaxed to me means applying a minimal amount of force. When I'm shooting the amount of tension I'm creating with my body anywhere from 50-75% of max. I'm not squeezing my body like I'm about to deadlift 500 pounds, but I am very far away from what I'd call relaxed.

 

As far as isolating the trigger finger....again I feel it's very overrated. I mash the crap out of my trigger on 95% of shots in matches and shoot 95ish% of the points all the time. A properly applied grip and stance will allow you to keep the gun on target even through crappy trigger control.

 

 

 

 

[johnbu]

On 6/29/2017 at 4:24 PM, Jake Di Vita said:

You gotta be real careful going with what feels natural because that feeling is pretty much never congruent with optimal performance. It may be counter intuitive, but the better I got the more uncomfortable the act of shooting became. As you get better your technique will evolve and so will what feels natural to you.

 

 

Again, Jake nails one !

 

Most every improvement has felt awkward and uncomfortable.  Gripping the gun hard and slightly rolling the elbows to get more "squeeze" on the gun has been very difficult, but doing so has increased the number of A hits, reduced the M's, D's and C's while speeding up splits.  It is after 6 weeks beginning to feel more normal, but still uncomfortable.