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GorillaTactical

Accidental Discharge During a Transition

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Posted (edited)

So, I'm looking at rule 10.4.

 

I 'm reading this as...you go home if:

 

1) round traveling in an unsafe direction as outlined in the brief (over the berm)

2) round impacting within 10' except when shooting at a target within 10'

3) shot fired during reload, unload

4) shot fired during a malfunction clearance

5) shot fired during the transfer of the firearm between hands

6) shot fired during movement, except if shooting at targets

 

*Movement - Taking more than one step in any direction, or changing body position (e.g. from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing etc.)*

 

I recently observed an incident where a high level shooter (shooting PCC) was shooting at a target within 10'.  There was a dividing wall between that target and the next target in the array to his right.  The shooter shot his two shots at target #1, broke the stock from his shoulder in order to clear the muzzle around the base of the wall to target #2, as he was standing right about at the end of the wall and could not simply swing the rifle, while shouldered, to target #2.  He did not move his feet.  Upon breaking the stock from his shoulder, with the muzzle pointed about halfway between target #1 and the base of the wall that he was swinging around, the firearm discharged (impact was probably 6-8' from the shooter).  The shooter was not stopped by the RO and continued on through the stage.

 

Aside from the judgement call as to whether or not #1 of the above was violated (10.4.2), where the shooter might just as well argue that he was taking a......maybe not so well aimed shot at T1....there doesn't appear to be any other obvious language to DQ the shooter...not that I particularly want to see shooters DQed, but if my hair stands on end while I'm watching someone shoot, generally it's because I believe the act/action was unsafe.

 

What do the experienced RO's say?

Edited by GorillaTactical

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10 minutes ago, GorillaTactical said:

So I'm looking at rule 10.4.

 

I see:

 

1) round traveling in an unsafe direction as outlined in the brief (over the berm)

2) round impacting within 10' except when there's a target within 10'

3) shot fired during reload, unload

4) shot fired during a malfunction clearance

5) shot fired during the transfer of the firearm between hands

6) shot fired during movement, except if shooting at targets

 

 

 

So, a recently observed an incident where a shooter (shooting PCC) was 

Shooter was? 

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Just now, Kraj said:

Shooter was? 

 

Sorry - was in the process of editing the post, I quick fired it off there. 

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I was at a local match not that long ago and honestly couldn't tell if a gentleman was having a series of ND's..or if he was just an outragesly bad shot..turns out hes just horrible.

 

I actually thought he was having nd's 

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From what is describe it sounds like a DQ - AD.  The shot landed within 10 feet and the target was farther away(?) and the gun was not pointed at the target(?).

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...and if you couldn't figure out what situation AD there's always the alternative:   give a DQ using Rule 10.5 Unsafe Gun Handling

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Posted (edited)

Except for 10.5.17, Unsafe Gun Handling only applies to conditions where the gun does NOT go BANG!

 

So which sub-part of 10.5 would you use?

Edited by George Jones

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11 hours ago, pjb45 said:

From what is describe it sounds like a DQ - AD.  The shot landed within 10 feet and the target was farther away(?) and the gun was not pointed at the target(?).

 

"I recently observed an incident where a high level shooter (shooting PCC) was shooting at a target within 10'."

 

 

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40 minutes ago, GorillaTactical said:

 

"I recently observed an incident where a high level shooter (shooting PCC) was shooting at a target within 10'."

 

 

I once DQed a shooter for drawing and putting a round in the ground about 18" in front of his foot. The target was about 4' away and some tried to argue it was not an AD. Trust me, it was.

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2 minutes ago, Sarge said:

I once DQed a shooter for drawing and putting a round in the ground about 18" in front of his foot. The target was about 4' away and some tried to argue it was not an AD. Trust me, it was.

 

That's one for all of us to think about.  Maybe a quick-draw at a very close target might not be worth the milliseconds saved (although the lure of the mythical Winnebago may make us forget :P ).

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, GorillaTactical said:

 The shooter shot his two shots at target #1, broke the stock from his shoulder in order to clear the muzzle around the base of the wall to target #2, as he was standing right about at the end of the wall and could not simply swing the rifle, while shouldered, to target #2.  He did not move his feet.  Upon breaking the stock from his shoulder, with the muzzle pointed about halfway between target #1 and the base of the wall that he was swinging around, the firearm discharged (impact was probably 6-8' from the shooter).  

 

edit: just re read the rules. The shooter wasn't moving, or reloading or clearing a malfunction or transferring the gun between hands. I think if the shot had gone further than 10', he would totally be able to get away with the AD under the rules. However, since the shot went less than 10', his only way out is to claim he was shooting at a paper target closer than 10'. I tend to think that if the gun was not pointed at the target, and he wasn't looking at the sights, he probably wasn't actually shooting at a target closer than 10', but that is a bit of a judgement call. You certainly don't need to actually look at the sights for many targets inside 10'. I can easily see an RM over-ruling a dq.

 

 

Edited by motosapiens

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20 minutes ago, Sarge said:

I once DQed a shooter for drawing and putting a round in the ground about 18" in front of his foot. The target was about 4' away and some tried to argue it was not an AD. Trust me, it was.

 

Appreciate the insight - sounds like it does come down to a judgement call on the part of the RO.

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1 hour ago, GorillaTactical said:

 

Appreciate the insight - sounds like it does come down to a judgement call on the part of the RO.

Yeah. There was a small table in front of the start position as I believe it had subsequent mags on it. Shot went just right of the table near the leg. A few inches left and it would have gone through the table so it was a fairly easy call

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I would have to see it but as described I would look at a 10.4.2 DQ.   It sounds like he was making the transition from one side of the wall to the other and had his finger on the trigger causing a ND into the ground within 10 feet of himself.  If I observed him coming off the target and transitioning the gun towards the wall I would be hard pressed to call it firing a shot at a legitimate target..

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Posted (edited)

Without seeing it I would suggest the RO deemed the AD to be in a safe direction, and with the target being less that 10 ft that "allows" the shot to strike less than 10 ft doesn't it?

Edited by terrydoc

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10.4.2 A shot which strikes the ground within 10 feet of the competitor, except when shooting at a paper target closer than 10 feet to the competitor.

 

Emphasis  mine

 

Once you pull off the target the 10.4.2 rule comes into play

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1 hour ago, Poppa Bear said:

10.4.2 A shot which strikes the ground within 10 feet of the competitor, except when shooting at a paper target closer than 10 feet to the competitor.

 

Emphasis  mine

 

Once you pull off the target the 10.4.2 rule comes into play

 

while i pretty much agree with you, lots of people 'shoot at' stuff that they don't hit, and uspsa rules seem like they are specifically written to allow 'early shots' when prepping the trigger and so forth. I think the shooter would have a valid argument that he was shooting at the paper target, even if the gun went off before his gun actually got on target.

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I agree that it can be a tough call.  When the shot is horizontal the only real option for a DQ is if they are moving and it is obvious that they are not engaging targets. ie they are looking one way as they travel and the gun is trailing to keep it down range when the shot goes off.  

 

In the OP case if the shot was in the area of the target it could be argued that they were shooting at it.  If on the other hand it was well below and to the side of the target AND hitting within the 10' distance it would be a much more difficult argument for the shooter to say I planned the shot.

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I have watched many shooters in Open shoot trough walls. Im sure they saw dot on the target but the round went into the wall about 2" below the port.  Some were close targets and some were not. Even at a level 5 match the shooter was coming into position shooting around a vision barrier to steel about 15 yds and put his first round into the wall. Nothing looked odd except the hole it the wall, no wood flying off just a perfect hole.  No one was DQed or even questioned. 

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It might be a "sight height over bore" problem, like you see with ARs.  The standard C-More is about 2" above the bore and you have to remember to clear the window or port sill.  Not a DQ offense, usually not a penalty.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, a matt said:

I have watched many shooters in Open shoot trough walls. Im sure they saw dot on the target but the round went into the wall about 2" below the port.  Some were close targets and some were not. Even at a level 5 match the shooter was coming into position shooting around a vision barrier to steel about 15 yds and put his first round into the wall. Nothing looked odd except the hole it the wall, no wood flying off just a perfect hole.  No one was DQed or even questioned. 

That's not against the rules in uspsa. Look up 10.4, it lists that things that are considered an accidentally discharge. 

 

Page 46 in the uspsa rulebook

Edited by Kraj

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Thanks for your inside about page 46 in the rule book. Chees

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On 5/16/2017 at 10:33 AM, teros135 said:

It might be a "sight height over bore" problem, like you see with ARs.  The standard C-More is about 2" above the bore and you have to remember to clear the window or port sill.  Not a DQ offense, usually not a penalty.

The only penalty would be the potential miss -- if round zipped fully through hardcover -- or the ammunition lost in incurring the potential reshoot -- if the round went on to strike down a popper or plate....

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16 minutes ago, Nik Habicht said:

The only penalty would be the potential miss -- if round zipped fully through hardcover -- or the ammunition lost in incurring the potential reshoot -- if the round went on to strike down a popper or plate....

 

Yes, indeed.  (Ask me how I know... :o  )

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