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calebj06

Question regarding uspsa lightning and thunder classifier

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calebj06   

So I shot my first uspsa today and had a question about the lightning and thunder stage. 

 

https://www.uspsa.org/classifiers/09-09.pdf

 

 

STAGE PROCEDURE

Set timer to five seconds for all strings.

75 ft. On signal, draw and engage targets with only two rounds each.
45 ft. On signal, draw and engage targets with only one round each, make a mandatory reload, and reengage targets with only one round each.

30 ft. On signal, draw and engage targets with only two rounds each strong hand only.

   

 

 

Ok so on the second string most all shooters wouldn't get the three shots after the reload before running out of time. 

 

So a few guys decided that since the description says that the best 6 shots on each target would be scored and that the course didn't say it was Virginia count, that they would put 3 rounds on each target from the third string to make up for not getting them of string 2. 

 

Now to me that's not legit. The decsription clearly says two shots only. I even casually asked a master class shooter before our group shot and he said it was a no go. (I overheard the guys saying they were gonna do that )

 

So then our group shot it and two guys did it. Our RO let it go and scored it. (Local match. RO was a shooter in our group and maybe not friends but at least acquaintances with offenders)

 

Now at this point I'm completely the new guy. This is only a local match and I'm not winning a new car or anything so I'm not overly upset about it and I'm not gonna get in the middle of it. I don't wanna get looked down on. 

 

I approach on guy that did it and said "hey can I ask you something?"  He said "yeah in a minute" then promptly ignored me the rest of the match. I'm pretty sure he knew I was gonna ask him about what he had just done. 

 

But it I wanna know for future. Was I in the right to say something to RO or even RM? Should there have been some sort of penalty for the extra shots from the third string? If so how do you know which rounds on target not to score?

 

thanks 

caleb 

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Quote

9.2.4  “Fixed Time” – Limited time, limited number of shots to be fired, stipulated number of hits per target to count for score.

 

9.2.4.1  A competitor’s score is calculated by adding the highest value stipulated number of required hits, minus penalties. The overall stage results are not factored, and competitors are ranked by the actual net points achieved by them.

 

9.2.4.2  Fixed Time must use paper targets exclusively and they should, where possible, be disappearing targets.

 

9.2.4.3  Fixed Time must only be used for Standard Exercises, Classifiers or Short Courses.

 

9.2.4.4  Fixed Time courses of fire do not incur failure to shoot at or miss penalties. 

 

I think is the relevant rule, hopefully a qualified RO will chime in on this. 

Edited by BritinUSA

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If that's how they follow the USPSA rules, then this club is NOT shooting USPSA matches, no matter what they say.

 

And it was intentional disregard for the rules since there is no way that many shooters can "misinterpret" a simple classifier stage.

 

If you want to continue shooting at this club, fine.  But be warned that if you go to a real USPSA club, all of the shooters will be required to follow the rules.  Don't develop some bad habits.

 

Care to share the name of the club?  NROI may want to review this and previos classifiers submitted.

 

Bill

 

Oh and the penalty would have been one procedural for each extra shot fired.  (-30 pts).  

Edited by Flatland Shooter

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calebj06   
49 minutes ago, Flatland Shooter said:

If that's how they follow the USPSA rules, then this club is NOT shooting USPSA matches, no matter what they say.

 

And it was intentional disregard for the rules since there is no way that many shooters can "misinterpret" a simple classifier stage.

 

If you want to continue shooting at this club, fine.  But be warned that if you go to a real USPSA club, all of the shooters will be required to follow the rules.  Don't develop some bad habits.

 

Care to share the name of the club?  NROI may want to review this and previos classifiers submitted.

 

Bill

 

Oh and the penalty would have been one procedural for each extra shot fired.  (-30 pts).  

 

 

Thx for the clarification guys. 

 

Bill, I'll pass on naming the club publicly.(not that it would be hard to figure out) Like I said, first time ever shooting there. Some of us have to take what we can get for matches. Not a ton around these parts. I'm gonna have a chat with the RM about it on Monday. Just so he is aware. He's a super nice guy and I'm sure he will want to know how it went down. 

 

Maldonado I don't think it was a wife spread problem. I think these two got a wise idea and no one told them no and no one scored it right. I know the squad in front of us did it right and I know 13 out of 15 in our squad did it right. 

 

Caleb

Edited by calebj06

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Sarge   

Direct from the USPSA classifier handbook

"Practical shooting is distinct from other shooting disciplines in that the responsibility for determining the best, safe solution to the problem presented by a course of fire is the competitor’s. In other words, practical shooting intends to test the ability to think in addition to testing the ability to shoot rapidly and accurately. That intent is formalized in the Practical Shooting Handbook, in which IPSC 1.1.5 says, “IPSC matches are freestyle.” It is, however, necessary to establish an exception in the case of the classification system. The classification system is able to determine a competitor’s accuracy and speed as those abilities are quantifiable. The system is not able to measure the ability to “game” a stage as those intangible skills are not quantifiable. If competitors are allowed to outsmart the classification course designer the results are meaningless.

The primary responsibility for honoring this concept of fairness as it applies to the classification system lies with the competitor. The secondary responsibility is that of the match directors and range officers to ensure that the stages are run properly. If the stage description leaves any doubt as to the proper procedure, please call the office for clarification before the match. "

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Edge40   

Its a fixed time stage.

 

  1. 9.4.5.1  Extra shots (i.e. shots fired in excess of the number specified in a component string or stage), will each incur one procedural penalty. Additionally, during scoring, no more than the specified number and highest scoring hits will be awarded.

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You should have brought this up to the RO and/or the RM/MD.  I am pretty sure I know what club you shot at, and I know who was filling in as MD.  He would have corrected the problem.  

 

Even if you are stone cold new, if you think there is an issue, bring it to the RO or RM/MD. Better to be wrong and learn than to be right and silent.

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I think I know the name of the club you attended, shot the same match and I was not a member of your squad, but I would say the people who are doing this are cheaters and in need of correction.  

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By the way, if this is the club I'm thinking, the people who run it are good people.  Sorry that you were on a squad that doesn't want to follow the rules.

Edited by Out of Ammo
spelling error

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CHA-LEE   

And this is why the Match Staff needs to be embedded on each squad during club matches.

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Tech32   

We shot this same classifier last match.  It was confusing, and the stage description wasn't clear.  I remember it not saying"only" in the number of shots specified, because when I got home I read the description on the USPSA website and it was then clear to me that most people shot it wrong.  I don't know where the description came from, or if it was old and had since been rewritten?  It looked like an official USPSA briefing.  

 

Most people did the same and made up shots on the final string.  I think where it said "the best 6 are scored", people thought that you could make up extra shots if you had extra time.  

 

I have taken the NROI class and shoot fairly often, but can't always remember the rules or find and interpret them correctly in the book.  It could have been like us, and made an honest mistake on interpreting the stage description.

 

I think people shouldn't be so quick to judge other clubs.  There are many small clubs that don't have the resources of plenty of well educated RO's, GM shooters, or extra help to go around.  

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50 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

And this is why the Match Staff needs to be embedded on each squad during club matches.

 

That'd be a problem at an awful lot of clubs, where there are exactly two people who are officially Match Staff (like one guy doing stats and another guy doing combo MD/RM duties.) Things must be different where you are.

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CHA-LEE   

If a club is trying to run the whole thing with only 2 - 3 people then they are doing it wrong. There is no reason why a local club can't have 5 - 8 people on the match staff to help setup and run the match. With that many staff you can easily put one staff per squad to keep the knuckleheads from doing stupid shit.

 

Here in Colorado the majority of the local clubs have 6 - 8 match staff. 1 MD/RM, 1 Stats, and 4 - 6 Stage Designer/Builders. Doing it this way spreads the workload around so its manageable and dramatically reduces burn out. This also allows for seeding each squad with members of the match staff to keep the hooligans in line. 

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On 4/17/2017 at 7:33 PM, Out of Ammo said:

I think I know the name of the club you attended, shot the same match and I was not a member of your squad, but I would say the people who are doing this are cheaters and in need of correction.  

 

The problem isn't the shooter; it's the RO.  People are always going to try and figure out how to game a stage.  It is the ROs responsibility to apply the USPSA rulebook fairly to all shooters to ensure equity in the competition.  

 

Shooters should have incurred a procedural per each extra shot fired in the string (9.4.5.1).  

 

Shooters also should have been assessed a procedural for each target insufficiently engaged in the earlier strings and then engaged in the later string per the stacked shot rule (9.4.5.3, Stacked shots (i.e. obviously shooting more than the required rounds on a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots than specified in any string), will incur one procedural penalty per target insufficiently engaged in any string. This penalty will not be applied if the written stage briefing specifi-cally authorizes stacked shots.)

 

Your RO should go back and do the class over again (assuming he is a certified RO in the first place).

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21 hours ago, pointerman1967 said:

Shooters also should have been assessed a procedural for each target insufficiently engaged in the earlier strings and then engaged in the later string per the stacked shot rule (9.4.5.3, Stacked shots (i.e. obviously shooting more than the required rounds on a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots than specified in any string), will incur one procedural penalty per target insufficiently engaged in any string. This penalty will not be applied if the written stage briefing specifi-cally authorizes stacked shots.)

No there is no penalty in fixed time stages for not shooting enough shots or having enough hits. (9.2.4.4)

 

Even in Virginia count there is no additional penalty for not shooting enough shots beyond the miss penalties that will be earned. (10.2.2.1 addresses no penalty for not following the wsb in regards to number of shots fired)

 

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