Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Production Division - Opposable grip from Front Sight


ArrDave

Recommended Posts

The article was interesting.  For those who haven't got it yet - the "Gist" is that your support hand should have a "handshake" natural cant, not a strong forward cant, and most of your power should be on a 45 down and into the bore.  It seems better suited for LIM/OPEN.  I shoot a CZ and just tried this at the range.  I couldn't comment that it helped because after 2 or so shots my thumb would shake loose from my Shadow.  My thumb was basically resting where the slide stop enters the frame.  In a longer string of fire I would lose the thumb on frame connection. 

 

On a Glock, I could see this being viable because of the little shelf it has.  Do any production shooters use this "opposable grip" indicated in the current front sight? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 139
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

18 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

arms out in front of me at shoulder height, shooting a pistol. when i open my support hand my hand/fingers point down towards the ground at a 45 degree angle.

This article says you shouldn't cam your wrist forward like that - you lose too much grip strength. 

 

I can't keep my thumb welded to the frame. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My support hand thumb rides in the takedown lever recess of the frame and exerts lateral and downward force as the author talks about.  

 

s-takedown-lever.jpg

 

When I handle CZs and Tanfos I ride the slide stop lever.  If I ever switch I'll have to figure out how to prevent that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, ArrDave said:

This article says you shouldn't cam your wrist forward like that - you lose too much grip strength. 

 

I can't keep my thumb welded to the frame. 

 

Does your thumb rest forward of the slide stop lever when you're trying this method?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

hand.jpg

and i'm not shooting with both eyes open either, the horror! hahhaha

 

for reference that's a regular sp01 shadow, i'm 5'7" and 140lbs and wear a medium motorcycle glove. so i'm not some big monster.

Edited by rowdyb
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think humans operate very well with any joints locked at end range. I haven't read the article, but it sounds like I'd agree with it. In general I think it is better to have a normal wrist angle and apply constant pressure forward towards the target. I think this action manages recoil very well and simultaneously allows me to use less than perfect trigger control. My experience is that applying a large amount of force into the gun and then driving the gun to point where I want, the relatively tiny amount of force you apply imperfectly on the trigger doesn't cause nearly as much muzzle movement as it would under more relaxed conditions. I think most people just kind of put the gun up in front of their face and expect it to stay there. My goal is to decisively hold the gun and drive it on every shot.

 

This method of grip is certainly easier to do with a thumb rest. If I don't have a thumb rest, my support side thumb ends up gripping down into my weak hand index finger as that's the general direction I need to apply force with my grip in order to drive the muzzle towards the target. In my opinion keeping thumbs "welded to the frame" is overrated.

 

By focusing on holding the gun in place it returns to place from recoil much easier and consistently than if I were to just let the gun do whatever it wanted.

Edited by Jake Di Vita
Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, wtturn said:

 

Does your thumb rest forward of the slide stop lever when you're trying this method?

Nope.  Sits right on top of the slide pin where it enters the frame.  

 

I could honestly see this working on a glock frame, because I did it when I shot glocks.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, ArrDave said:

Nope.  Sits right on top of the slide pin where it enters the frame.  

 

I could honestly see this working on a glock frame, because I did it when I shot glocks.  

 

So same thing that happens to me with CZ.

 

You may not be able to use the weak thumb in that manner on a CZ due to frame differences.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The opposable vs thumbs forward grip article is interesting but missing a HUGE data point. There is nothing in that article that talks about actual or effective pounds of grip force produced by each hand while gripping the gun properly to manage recoil. I honestly don't know how the author, doctor or not, can make a viable determination of one method being "Better" than the other without knowing all of the data points. How hard you grip the gun in actual pounds of force makes a huge difference in the recoil management and sight tracking process.

 

The author is also an A class shooter in Open and barely a B class shooter in Limited/L10. So how much "knowledge" can he really have on the subject when he clearly isn't able to produce a GM level performance. If you can't produce a GM level performance on classifiers or at major matches I really don't think you KNOW what method is really "better" than another.

 

I hate to poo poo on someones article, but I think its very short sighted to publish something like that when all of the important data points are not considered.

Edited by CHA-LEE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I haven't read the article yet but how can one use true opposable grip without a thumb rest?

 

I understand that one can apply force to a slide release or other feature in that area on a Production gun, but we're not talking about a true opposable grip.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, d_striker said:

I haven't read the article yet but how can one use true opposable grip without a thumb rest?

 

I understand that one can apply force to a slide release or other feature in that area on a Production gun, but we're not talking about a true opposable grip.

 

The force has to be applied primarily through the support hand wrist. The hardest part of this is training your grip to the point where it doesn't budge. I'm not sure what you define as a true opposable grip. Perhaps it isn't the same strictly, but the force applied isn't too far off from what it would be using a thumb rest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, d_striker said:

I haven't read the article yet but how can one use true opposable grip without a thumb rest?

 

I'm not a GM, so I'm not really qualified to comment, but for sure, since my weak hand grip is holding on the gun MUCH harder than my strong hand grip, and since i'm applying force to the gun with my weak thumb, It seems like that qualifies for what the article terms  'opposable grip'.

 

At any rate, the gun doesn't move a whole lot when I shoot, and my weak hand doesn't move at all on the gun, so whatever I'm doing seems to work just fine. It's every other part of my game that needs help to get to the level where I can comment on topics like this. ;)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Jake Di Vita said:

 

The force has to be applied primarily through the support hand wrist. The hardest part of this is training your grip to the point where it doesn't budge. I'm not sure what you define as a true opposable grip. Perhaps it isn't the same strictly, but the force applied isn't too far off from what it would be using a thumb rest.

 

I would call a true opposable grip, in terms of shooting a pistol, one in which the support wrist is neutral (not canted/cammed forward) and the thumb is applying force on a vector directly opposite of the force vector from the fingers.  Although they are applying force on different planes, the vectors would be roughly parallel.  

 

I think what clouds peoples' opinion on thumb rests are the many different brands on the market.  All with varying locations for the pad/rest...It seems that people that are using thumb rests with the pad far forward, in a position where there thumb would normally be with a support-hand-cammed-forward type grip, are still using a wrist cammed forward grip or somewhat of a hybrid grip.  

 

 

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

 

I'm not a GM, so I'm not really qualified to comment, but for sure, since my weak hand grip is holding on the gun MUCH harder than my strong hand grip, and since i'm applying force to the gun with my weak thumb, It seems like that qualifies for what the article terms  'opposable grip'.

 

At any rate, the gun doesn't move a whole lot when I shoot, and my weak hand doesn't move at all on the gun, so whatever I'm doing seems to work just fine. It's every other part of my game that needs help to get to the level where I can comment on topics like this. ;)

 

 

I don't think you need to be a GM to comment on what your current grip is like and whether or not it works for YOU.  I think where some people get in trouble is when they say that one particular grip, or method of doing something, is universally better than another.

 

My grip when I shot Production with an SP01 Shadow was similar to what you are describing.  I would apply force to the slide stop but with my wrist cammed forward as much as I could.  My thumb was applying force to the gun more in a downward vector.   

IMG_0068.JPG

Edited by d_striker
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, d_striker said:

.It seems that people that are using thumb rests with the pad far forward, in a position where there thumb would normally be with a support-hand-cammed-forward type grip, are still using a wrist cammed forward grip or somewhat of a hybrid grip.  

 

Without the thumb rest my support hand wrist is applying force in the same direction as it would if I were camming my wrist all the way forward. Camming the wrist all the way forward puts you at end range of motion though and I don't find this to be a stable/strong position to operate from. My support hand thumb is not like yours in the picture at all, it's down tight to my other fingers. I also wrap my support hand a bit different than you. The first knuckle of the index finger on my support hand is more on the right side of the trigger guard. This gives me significantly more friction in my grip and I'm able to use it as an anchor point to crush the meat of my thumbs inwards towards the top of the gun. I find this to be the most efficient setup to transfer as much force into holding the gun still as possible.

 

The only job my weak hand fingers have is to make sure the rest of my weak hand doesn't move. From the wrist I'm applying force both high inward towards the barrel axis and muzzle forward towards the target.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You mentioning your thumb being down against your other fingers makes me think of Bob Vogel's grip.  But it looks like he definitely cams his wrist as far forward as possible.  

 

It would be awesome to see what your grip looks like.  Honestly, my grip when shooting irons wasn't all that great.  It wasn't horrible but it wasn't great either.  

 

I'd estimate I have only slightly higher than average grip strength.  No where near Bob Vogel's, Charlie Perez's, or you.....And I never will.  Which is why I think I like the opposable grip shooting Open with a thumb rest.  But I think I'm sort of comparing apples to oranges considering Open guns have comps.

 

 

Open_Prod-11-300x199.jpg

Edited by d_striker
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll try and get a decent picture tomorrow.

 

Bob's thumb position is exactly what I'm talking about. There are a couple differences between what we do. His wrist is certainly closer to end range of motion than mine. We both apply inward pressure towards the top of the gun, but he applies this inward pressure from the shoulder where as I apply the inward pressure from the wrist. The reason for the difference is because I think it's important to keep the shoulder externally rotated while in flexion. His shoulder is clearly internally rotated which I can tell because his left elbow position is high and outside. A properly externally rotated shoulder would mean the elbow is going to be more down and inside. 

 

I love the thumb rest for two big reasons. The first is it makes applying pressure towards the target easier since I have another firm point of contact. The second is it's an additional reference point that helps me keep my grip consistent from rep to rep.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...