Fitting 2011 / 1911 slide to frame

[PaladinPrecision]

5 hours ago, assaulter said:

Bruce might be setting up another class in Kansas City this fall.

That's all well and good. I live in Oregon, that would be quite the expensive trip for me. lol. I have built a bunch of guns from parts and they usually turn out very well. The problem is that I take AGES to do any one step trying to make everything perfect. lol

[mike cyrwus]

Pin gauges

[PaladinPrecision]

On 4/25/2017 at 5:12 AM, mike cyrwus said:

Pin gauges

Do you have pin gauges in 0.0001 increments? I have a minus set, for like 0.025-0.500, but it's graduated in 0.001. 

 

[Can]

aviation shops do.  we have sets of Deltronics that go from  -13 ten-thousandths to +13 ten-thousands of common sizes, like 1/2  1/4 5/16's n so on.

http://www.judgetool.com/deltronictp25tenthsets.aspx

 

but airplane manufacturers demand a lot higher level of quality than most other industries.

[GB3]

On ‎3‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 6:45 PM, MrPostman said:

On ‎3‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 5:50 PM, tyler2you said:

 

Yep, I've done 2.  Both required removing around .008" off the bottom and a few thousandths off the frame rails.  Great combo IMO.

The ones I have done needed around .005" to .009" removed from the bottom of the slide before it would start on the rails. Then about .003" to .006" off of the outside edges of the frame rails before it would slide on completely. I would tap it on with a plastic/nylon hammer, you wat it pretty tight at first. Then I would use lapping compound to smooth everything out. Use a new endmill as it will leave the best finish so you don't have too much work left to do by hand.

 

 

How do you guys go about removing material from the bottom of the slide rails? Is the a way to do it with files and stones or is this better left to a mill? Thanks!

[MrPostman]

 
How do you guys go about removing material from the bottom of the slide rails? Is the a way to do it with files and stones or is this better left to a mill? Thanks!

I have a mill with 3 axis DRO and I couldn't see me doing it by hand. I know that it is possible but it would be much more time consuming for sure.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[GB3]

OK, cool. Thanks!

[zzt]

I did the last one with a file, a surface plate and sand paper.  I had to take .006" off and my machinist was busy and could not fit me in for four weeks.  I don't want to do it again.  I began by taking .005" off with a broad file, then finished up on the surface plate with sand paper.  It came out perfect, but it was nerve wracking.  It was very time consuming with all the measuring to make sure everything stayed straight and parallel.  The next two are already out for milling.  In fact, one of them is out with the frame.  I'm experimenting with having someone machine fit the frame and slide.  I'm supposed to get it back with an interference fit.  I hope it works out, because slide to frame fitting by hand is the most time consuming aspect of building a 1911/2011.

[GB3]

I think I'm gonna give this method a try. I'll try not to give myself an ulcer keeping everything true. Or get early onset arthritis in my hands from all the file work. Thanks again guys!

[zzt]

GB3, there will be very little file work.  Using a good, wide file the first .005~.006 will come off very quickly.  After that you'll be using sanding sticks or stones or sandpaper on a surface plate (or flat pane of glass) to remove the rest.  A good 12" x 12" surface plate flat to within a micron can be bought for $30.  It is a very good investment.  Thin paper or plastic backed 3M abrasive sheets are also a good investment.

[PaladinPrecision]

On 8/24/2017 at 7:33 AM, zzt said:

GB3, there will be very little file work.  Using a good, wide file the first .005~.006 will come off very quickly.  After that you'll be using sanding sticks or stones or sandpaper on a surface plate (or flat pane of glass) to remove the rest.  A good 12" x 12" surface plate flat to within a micron can be bought for $30.  It is a very good investment.  Thin paper or plastic backed 3M abrasive sheets are also a good investment.

If you were to buy a 12 x 12 surface plate today where would you order it from? Also can you share an example of the 3m sheets? They have a rather large product range lol. I was going to buy a foster frame and order a crap slide to experiment on slide to frame fit when it doesn't matter to me. (on a single stack build lol).

[zzt]

I forget where I got my surface plate.  It was a while ago.  You can order them from Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1/143-7953709-4310649?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=surface+plates  A 9x12 is fine, as is accuracy to +/- .0001".  You don't really need micron flatness.  

 

You can get the 3M abrasives there also.  For the very best selection, try Gesswein.  I buy all my sacrificial stones and abrasives from them.  https://www.gesswein.com/c-53-sandpaper.aspx

 

Polishing https://www.gesswein.com/p-6866-3m-wetordry-polishing-paper.aspx 

 

 

 

[PaladinPrecision]

28 minutes ago, zzt said:

I forget where I got my surface plate.  It was a while ago.  You can order them from Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1/143-7953709-4310649?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=surface+plates  A 9x12 is fine, as is accuracy to +/- .0001".  You don't really need micron flatness.  

 

You can get the 3M abrasives there also.  For the very best selection, try Gesswein.  I buy all my sacrificial stones and abrasives from them.  https://www.gesswein.com/c-53-sandpaper.aspx

 

Polishing https://www.gesswein.com/p-6866-3m-wetordry-polishing-paper.aspx 

 

 

 

So after milling the under side of the slide on a mill. What paper steps would you take like 800, 1000, 1500 3m wet/ dry sand paper? (the link you sent was the whole abrasive section, not just the one with the plastic/ adhesive back you described before), then what grits of polishing paper?

Thanks! It's like talking to Jerry Keefer, a whole new level of precision higher than most smiths. 

[zzt]

PP, it depends on how much you left on the slide.  I left .001" on and started with 400 grit and removed all the file marks.  I then went progressively finer from 600 to 2000.  By that time everything was straight and square.  The slide would go on the frame, but was tight.  I polished with 4000 grit, then with 6000.  The bottom was mirror bright.

 

The I cleaned the surface plate and the slide.  I placed the slide on the surface plate and dragged it at right angles.  Examining the bottom of the slide, I could see faint marks in the mirror section.  I polished those with a sanding stick to remove (just a couple of passes).  Repeat.  When there are faint marks all along the bottom of the slide, you are flat to within .0001"

 

You can start with the polishing pack if you like. Here is the link.  https://www.gesswein.com/p-10298-3m-wetordry-polishing-paper-kit.aspx  It is thin, non woven paper backed. It starts at 400 and goes to 8000.  It is what I used for the final finishing.  If you want to adhere it to the plate, get some spray on adhesive.  Spray the back, then roll it onto the plate, making sure there are no air bubbles.  You can buy the 3M film backed sandpaper at Home Depot.  The adhesive is not necessary when you are taking ten thousandths off with thin sheets.  It is if you use thicker sheets like Norton you buy at a big-box retailer.  There the paper does not lie dead flat and you take more off the front and back of what you are sanding/polishing.  I have some 8" long 2" wide super thin plastic backed sheets with adhesive.  I don't remember where I bought them.  So a web search.  They are useful for small things.

[PaladinPrecision]

So machine to about 0.001 over, hand sand/ dykem to make sure it's flat. What kinda clearance do you think you end up with by the end. Like 0.0003 clearance when it just starts to go on, vs when it's done? Just so I know what I should expect. I was playing around with my slide and the everglades slide fitting block. But when I bothered to mic it, it was 0.0002 in front to rear difference(they mill the inside mating surfaces but surface grind the outside... boo. it also dragged alot on the sections that still had cerakote so the measurements were all over the place. Hint, one of the next machines I buy will be a surface grinder so I can just machine slide to frame fit with surface grinder. lol

 

Edited November 18, 2017 by PaladinPrecision

[zzt]

I only have one micrometer that is known accurate to less than .0001", and it's an outside micrometer.  So I don't actually know what the 'clearances' were.  It wasn't much.

 

I just got my experimental machine fit slide and frame back from JEM Guns.  All machining was done on a mill.  The slide could be tapped onto the frame, but would not move freely.  By the time the barrel was fit, the slide had been on and off so often the fit was much better.  The slide could be moved by hand, but there was still some resistance.  With everything dripping oil, I operated the slide by hand a LOT until I had burnished away all resistance.  There is no movement side-to-side or up/down, yet the slide glides so smoothly I'm amazed.  I had been planning to lap it starting with 4000 grit diamond paste, but it wasn't necessary.  

 

I'm calling this experiment a success.  Based on this I asked for the 2011 frame and slide I ordered to be machine fit.  I will NEVER fit a slide by hand again.  

[PaladinPrecision]

Cool, I was turned onto building up the slide and frame mostly using a surface grinder from one of the bullseye smiths, Jerry Keefer... He uses a machine process for almost everything. When done right it should have the most bearing surface and everything parallel. Maybe a little tiny bit of polishing the tiny grinder ridges. I keep sending my guns to people that end up just screwing my guns up. So several years ago I started just doing all the work myself and absorbing everything I could from the specialists.