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16 minutes ago, pjb45 said:

I believe you cannot compel a shooter to move his feet if he does not have to move his feet to see all the targets.  As long as he does not move his feet and can see all the targets (more than 8 shots) then the stage is illegal.

 

Boss I disagree.  It is an illegal stage.

Rule supporting that?

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1.1.5
Freestyle
– USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted
to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot
targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fir
e must not
require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or
stance, except as specified below.

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Posted (edited)

Nothing in the example I listed violated the free style rule.

Rules say you cannot require more than 8 shots from a position. That doesn't mean you can only have 8 shots from a position as long as some of the targets are available from a different position. Rule book defines a different position as movement of both feet. Doesn't say 1,2 or 3 steps just movement of both feet.

I have seen many stages where open or limited shooters could shoot 16 to 20 plus from 1 position and then engage the rest from 1 or 2 positions.

Trust me I don't like or approve of these stages as a revolver shooter but just pointing out they are legal according to the rules.

Edited by Bosshoss

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2 hours ago, Bosshoss said:

Legally could have a 3x3 shooting box and 16 wide open targets and be a legal stage. As long as you can move your feet within the shooting box then targets are AVAILABLE from a different position.

Not a good stage but legal none the less.

I questioned a match director about a stage that had 5 targets that had to be shot thru a port and reminded him about 8 shots from a position. He walked up and showed me that the targets were available from several positions by just moving your feet a couple of inches while shooting thru the port.

This is incorrect (and I don't mean to single you out by quoting you as others have said the same thing, just quoting as an example).

 

It seems some of you are missing that the rule says "Course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location OR view".  What this means is that you can't require more than 8 shots from a single location and also can't require more than 8 shots from a single view, that's what "or" means - if either of the two options is violated then it's an illegal stage, they don't both have to be violated (or else the rule would say "and" instead of "or").

 

So if you have a stage with a port with 5 paper targets (2 shots per target) behind it and all 5 of those targets can't be seen from anywhere else then this is an illegal stage.  It doesn't matter that you can run right up to the port and shoot the targets and can also see them standing 10 feet back from the port; that's all still the same "view" (see definition of view in glossary).  There's no vision barrier that breaks your range of sight between standing 10 feet back from the port and walking right up to it.  Same with more than 8 shots from inside a 3x3 box, same view no matter where you stand in the box.

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I saw a stage recently that had two ports, hence two views.  A total of 12 targets.  Three targets were viewed from both ports, if you had 8 shots from one port and 8 shots from the other port, some targets remained unshot.  Just because targets are visible from multiple ports does not necessarily mean the stage is legal.

 

Your 3x3 box example is illegal since you cannot compel a shooter to move his feet - 1.1.5.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Southpaw said:

This is incorrect (and I don't mean to single you out by quoting you as others have said the same thing, just quoting as an example).

 

It seems some of you are missing that the rule says "Course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location OR view".  What this means is that you can't require more than 8 shots from a single location and also can't require more than 8 shots from a single view, that's what "or" means - if either of the two options is violated then it's an illegal stage, they don't both have to be violated (or else the rule would say "and" instead of "or").

 

So if you have a stage with a port with 5 paper targets (2 shots per target) behind it and all 5 of those targets can't be seen from anywhere else then this is an illegal stage.  It doesn't matter that you can run right up to the port and shoot the targets and can also see them standing 10 feet back from the port; that's all still the same "view" (see definition of view in glossary).  There's no vision barrier that breaks your range of sight between standing 10 feet back from the port and walking right up to it.  Same with more than 8 shots from inside a 3x3 box, same view no matter where you stand in the box.

OR has several definitions but I disagree with your use of "OR" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/or

In fact in your interpretation above you used "and" instead of "or"(I highlighted in red).

I didn't write the rules so I can't say what the person who did is trying to say.

If the rules mean no more than 8 shots from a location and view then 90% of the field courses I have ever shot have been illegal.

Here is a stage from the just shot Optic Nationals with 11 shots from 1 position/view(she only moves one foot). 

Targets are available from other locations even if you don't shoot them from another location.

USPSA definition of location is both feet moved.

Edited by Bosshoss

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4 hours ago, pjb45 said:

I saw a stage recently that had two ports, hence two views.  A total of 12 targets.  Three targets were viewed from both ports, if you had 8 shots from one port and 8 shots from the other port, some targets remained unshot.  Just because targets are visible from multiple ports does not necessarily mean the stage is legal.

 

Your 3x3 box example is illegal since you cannot compel a shooter to move his feet - 1.1.5.

Once again my argument is the shooters don't have to move to a different location BUT targets must be available from a different location and they are in the 3x3 shooting box by merely moving your feet(according to rules as written). No one has to move or be "compeled" to move. 

Have seen open shooters shoot a 32 round course(not a good design) from 2 positions at back fault line. MD just shook his head as he and several others on setup missed it.

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I don't see how any of those definitions of "or" disagree with what I said? In the case of that sentence in the rulebook "or" is being used as the logical disjunction (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_disjunction). So the statement is true if either of the propositions is true - location or view. 

 

I used "and" to reword the sentence. Saying "must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view" is the same thing as saying "must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location and also must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single view". They mean the same thing.

 

And yes of course you're allowed to take more than 8 shots from 1 location or view. The rule just says a stage can't "require" you to. So some of those targets must also be available from somewhere else, even if you don't choose to shoot it from the other location/view.

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19 hours ago, Bosshoss said:

Yes according to the rules as written.

Legally could have a 3x3 shooting box and 16 wide open targets and be a legal stage. As long as you can move your feet within the shooting box then targets are AVAILABLE from a different position.

Not a good stage but legal none the less.

I questioned a match director about a stage that had 5 targets that had to be shot thru a port and reminded him about 8 shots from a position. He walked up and showed me that the targets were available from several positions by just moving your feet a couple of inches while shooting thru the port.

except for rules  1.2.1.1, 1.2.1.2, and 1.2.1.3 that all say "Course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view."

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Yes according to the rules as written.

Legally could have a 3x3 shooting box and 16 wide open targets and be a legal stage. As long as you can move your feet within the shooting box then targets are AVAILABLE from a different position.

 

You cannot compel a shooter to move his feet=".......cannot dictate....."

Additionally, it is the same view!

 

Gee Whiz.  There comes a point when you should acknowledge that it is an illegal stage.  We have passed that point.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Southpaw said:

I don't see how any of those definitions of "or" disagree with what I said? In the case of that sentence in the rulebook "or" is being used as the logical disjunction (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_disjunction). So the statement is true if either of the propositions is true - location or view. 

 

I used "and" to reword the sentence. Saying "must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view" is the same thing as saying "must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location and also must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single view". They mean the same thing.

 

And yes of course you're allowed to take more than 8 shots from 1 location or view. The rule just says a stage can't "require" you to. So some of those targets must also be available from somewhere else, even if you don't choose to shoot it from the other location/view.

I'm not trying to argue I just took "or" as(Webster's definition) "coffee or tea - sink or swim"  kind of either one or the other kinda thing.

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