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sstephns

Should have DQ'd a shooter

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New RO here. Should have DQd a shooter for two infractions on the same COF but wasn't sure enough about them or quick enough to do it prior to end of COF. The more I think about it, the more I believe I was wrong in not issuing the DQ. I keep playing it over and over in my head and feel guilty about it. But I reckon it's a lesson learned and fortunately without consequence.

 

My point is, go with your gut.

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  You can DQ a shooter after they finish COF. I have done it when a shooter was very hard of hearing. He never heard stop multiple times. I just DQED him when he as finished.

  Learning the art of ROing takes time. There are two distinct ways of looking at it.

 Safety is paramount so when in doubt stop the shooter. OR It sucks to ruin a good run with a wrong call so you let it go and wonder if you were wrong.

  I stopped a shooter at a level II a few years back when his gun went off unintentionally. As soon as I finished yelling stop I had my doubts if it would meet the criteria for an AD but it was still a safety issue and I reacted. I still called for the RM and told him I may have jumped the gun and he overturned the DQ. I apologized to the shooter and had him reshoot. 

 

I always feel feel better later if I made a call than if I didn't when I should have.

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I had a shooter with an AD I called stop he never heard me,but all the peanut gallery did..

About half way thru the stage he stopped and ask me, why you didn't DQ me ?

I said I did, but you never heard me and I was going to call you after you finished..

He unloaded show clear .. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, mreed911 said:

DQ'ed for?

Close to or broke the 180. I tried to be in a good spot to watch it on this particular stage and saw it go that way when he reloaded but wasn't 100% sure. Second was finger in the trigger while clearing a malf on the last two targets

Edited by sstephns

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close to 180 isn't a dq.  those calls are tough to make unless they're really obvious.  occasionally i will look up at the downrange berm to get my bearings again during a shooter's run.  

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1 minute ago, davsco said:

close to 180 isn't a dq.  those calls are tough to make unless they're really obvious.  occasionally i will look up at the downrange berm to get my bearings again during a shooter's run.  

 Understood. Another shooter told me after that he had broke it, but again I couldn't call it or be certain about it. 

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59 minutes ago, sstephns said:

Close to or broke the 180. I tried to be in a good spot to watch it on this particular stage and saw it go that way when he reloaded but wasn't 100% sure. Second was finger in the trigger while clearing a malf on the last two targets

 

as previously mentioned, 'close to' isn't a dq. Every dq I have called for 180 has been absolutely no doubt.

 

also note that you only have to remove your finger from the trigger guard when clearing a malfunction if you move the gun so it is clearly not pointing at targets. It can be hard to tell the difference between 'still in the trigger guard' vs 'out of the trigger guard but next to it'.

 

At any rate, it is good to think about these things. Especially when learning, you will miss some stuff, or not be sure about it. That is better imho than making a call where you are actually guessing.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

as previously mentioned, 'close to' isn't a dq. Every dq I have called for 180 has been absolutely no doubt.

 

also note that you only have to remove your finger from the trigger guard when clearing a malfunction if you move the gun so it is clearly not pointing at targets. It can be hard to tell the difference between 'still in the trigger guard' vs 'out of the trigger guard but next to it'.

 

At any rate, it is good to think about these things. Especially when learning, you will miss some stuff, or not be sure about it. That is better imho than making a call where you are actually guessing.

Yea... Booger hook was clearly hooked near the bang switch and clearly not pointed at the target while trying to clear the cluster. That's the one in really kicking myself over. 

 

But yes, good to think about. 

Edited by sstephns

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1 hour ago, sstephns said:

 Understood. Another shooter told me after that he had broke it, but again I couldn't call it or be certain about it. 

If YOU didn't see it don't waste any more time worrying about it.

 

As for the close to 180, a very wise RM taught me that even he rarely DQ's a shooter for breaking 180. But 190 or 200 you'll KNOW when that happens and he had called those many times. :)

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5 hours ago, sstephns said:

Close to or broke the 180. I tried to be in a good spot to watch it on this particular stage and saw it go that way when he reloaded but wasn't 100% sure. Second was finger in the trigger while clearing a malf on the last two targets

 

As others have already said, you have to be 100% sure that the shooter broke 180 in order to DQ them.  Even if you're 99.9% sure they broke it, you can't call it.  It doesn't matter what the peanut gallery tells you...The responsibility is on the RO to make the call.

 

Also, as Moto pointed out, finger in the trigger guard while clearing a malfunction is allowed if gun is still pointed at targets per 10.5.8.

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5 hours ago, d_striker said:

 

As others have already said, you have to be 100% sure that the shooter broke 180 in order to DQ them.  Even if you're 99.9% sure they broke it, you can't call it.  It doesn't matter what the peanut gallery tells you...The responsibility is on the RO to make the call.

 

Also, as Moto pointed out, finger in the trigger guard while clearing a malfunction is allowed if gun is still pointed at targets per 10.5.8.

Definitely not pointed at the targets.

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14 hours ago, Sarge said:

  I stopped a shooter at a level II a few years back when his gun went off unintentionally. As soon as I finished yelling stop I had my doubts if it would meet the criteria for an AD but it was still a safety issue and I reacted. I still called for the RM and told him I may have jumped the gun and he overturned the DQ. I apologized to the shooter and had him reshoot. 

 

That's not unreasonable at all -- I've seen (and done) that sort of thing several times, usually for the AD-that-isn't-a-DQable-offense type calls.

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14 hours ago, sstephns said:

Close to or broke the 180. I tried to be in a good spot to watch it on this particular stage and saw it go that way when he reloaded but wasn't 100% sure. Second was finger in the trigger while clearing a malf on the last two targets

can't DQ for being close to 180, if you are not absolutely 100% certain he broke 180, you should not DQ the shooter.

 

if the shooter is on target and clearing a malfunction, they are within the rules to have their finger on the trigger.

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The score keeper needs to be the 2nd RO and needs to be at the right spot to see 180's . If the main RO is behind the shooter its really hard to see it.

 

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On 3/21/2017 at 6:51 PM, kpbaer said:

The score keeper needs to be the 2nd RO and needs to be at the right spot to see 180's . If the main RO is behind the shooter its really hard to see it.

 

Can others comment here??? I would like to know a definitive process that should be followed when both RO and Scorer are doing their jobs.

I am not an official RO but my understanding of how the RO and Scorer should work together is this:

The RO is responsible for watching the gun, essentially everything the shooter is doing manipulating the gun throughout the COF to insure no safety rules or COF rules are broken.  The job of the scorer is to watch for things like foot faults or target infractions like FTSA or to many shots on a target in a Virginia count stage for example.  We all see a lot of scorers these days doing none of that and scoring while the shooter is advancing forward but all CRO's I know say that is a big dereliction of duties and that should not be done.

 I'm very interested in getting certified as an RO so I'm also interested to hear some thoughts here.  Thanks All!

 

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A good RO can multi task enough to count shots, notice foot faults, FTE, etc. I can usually tell a shooter where he shot when he has a mike. :) 

 When a shooter is just shooting I don't get fixated on watching him pull the trigger. As soon as he begins any other tasks such as reloading, clearing a malfunction etc then his gun handling gets all my attention.

 Score keepers on my stage watch for 180's, check my work on foot faults and most importantly then make sure the scoring is correct.

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don't beat yourself up. call what you know, not what you think. you'll get better with experience and i'm happy you're learning it and care about doing a good job.

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On 3/21/2017 at 8:51 PM, kpbaer said:

The score keeper needs to be the 2nd RO and needs to be at the right spot to see 180's . If the main RO is behind the shooter its really hard to see it.

 

 

This is problematic at local matches mostly. Everyone chats it up and doesn't pay attention or tries to get the scoring done too quickly.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/7/2017 at 6:41 PM, rowdyb said:

don't beat yourself up. call what you know, not what you think. you'll get better with experience and i'm happy you're learning it and care about doing a good job.

 

Thank you. I honestly want to do well and be fair, but correct. I don't like jumping to conclusions that may not be fair or correct.

 

As such I tend to observe until I know I'm correct in a call. Blatant calls, I'm ok with, but like anyone I guess it takes time to learn.

Edited by sstephns

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Been an RO for a few years and have had to DQ strangers, friends, and family alike.  I say don't go with your gut, but go with the rule book.  Safety violations, failure to do right, attempt to cheat...it doesn't matter, the end result has to be the same for everyone.  I've seen a few other RO's let things go for new shooters while I was directing a match at my local club, I had to explain that failing to call them out not only does them no good since they don't understand the severity of their mistake, but also puts all other shooters in jeopardy.  

 

I'd rather DQ somebody and than allow a dangerous environment.  

 

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On 3/20/2017 at 9:00 PM, Sarge said:

If YOU didn't see it don't waste any more time worrying about it.

 

As for the close to 180, a very wise RM taught me that even he rarely DQ's a shooter for breaking 180. But 190 or 200 you'll KNOW when that happens and he had called those many times. :)

Well thank you:)

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I've been an RO and now a CRO. The best advice that anyone has ever given me was: "the shooter DQ's themselves, you just call them on it" 

 

There was a shooter who was moving with his finger in the trigger guard and broke 180. Unfortunately, he pulled the trigger, shot part of the stage, the bullet bounced back and hit him in the leg. Luckily no one else was injured. This is why it is important to hold people accountable for the rules. A competitor will push the limits and often exceed the limits. Safety has to be the most important thing. We can never take the bullet back, it's permanent! 

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I had a stage with a lot of steel off to the left.  The intent was for the shooters to advance down range taking the steel as they advanced.  Upon arriving at the end of the stage they could engage the remaining paper and steel from around the walls.  I had a new shooter who figured the best way to engage the steel was to move to the middle and stand stationary as he engaged the first 5 poppers.  ALL 5 were available from the start position (T1 at about 70 degrees, T5 at about 45 degrees).  From his down range stationary position T1 was at about 110 degrees and T5 at about 70 degrees.  I had no choice but to watch him DQ as he shot T5, T4, and possibly T3 safely and then break the 180 as he swung back to get T2.  It sucked issuing the DQ but he was a good sport about it and treated it as a learning experience.  

 

After the DQ I could see that T3 was right on the 180 so issuing a 180 DQ could have been questionable after he engaged T3, but T2 was a no brainer, as he swung back I yelled STOP and ended his match before he could fire the unsafe shot.   As mentioned earlier I have not issued very many if any 180 violations but I have issued a number of 190+ violations.

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On 3/20/2017 at 6:22 PM, sstephns said:

Close to or broke the 180. I tried to be in a good spot to watch it on this particular stage and saw it go that way when he reloaded but wasn't 100% sure. Second was finger in the trigger while clearing a malf on the last two targets

 

I hear you on that.

 

I need to start letting some shooters know that they are DQ'ing themselves, as I let them get away too many times with repeat finger on trigger.  Thanks for the reminder.

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