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11 hours ago, PatriotMRD said:

Nearly all rulesets (99.999%), including outlaw, have a "180"-type rule. His muzzle may not have pointed uprange but, his muzzle was uprange of the 180° plane. Unless they were running without a 180 rule, I say, DQ! He should have been stopped IMMEDIATELY. All it would have taken is for him to trip and everyone uprange gets muzzled, at best. Worst case scenario, someone takes a shot to the face.

I used to run a local "outlaw" match. This would have been a DQ without question and the failure on the ROs part would have earned him a serious WTF talk.

This, not sure what the literal interpretation of the rules are, but at our matches it is an immediate DQ.

 

gerrit

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I was there. The RO in question does a good job and is a pretty experienced shooter but I think the shooters action caught him off guard and since he couldn't call for certain that the 180 was broken, and the fact that the shooter did have the pistol pointed down and not behind the line he made his decision in the shooters favor. From my perspective, probably the same perspective as the OP, yeah I'd have DQ'ed the shooter. FYI the shooter did it again on stage one of the match but clearly allowed the muzzle to break the 180 and the same RO DQ'ed him for it.

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The muzzle defines where the 180º plane is.  Pointing it at the ground and putting your body downrange of it is the violation (USPSA), even if done "safely."  That said, some big-time "outlaw" matches will not DQ for it, especially the matches designed for cops.

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8 minutes ago, MAC702 said:

The muzzle defines where the 180º plane is.  Pointing it at the ground and putting your body downrange of it is the violation (USPSA), even if done "safely."  That said, some big-time "outlaw" matches will not DQ for it, especially the matches designed for cops.

What rule are you stating here exactly?

 

10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or not (limited exceptions: 10.5.6). 

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Not a USPSA match, 3 Gun Nation rules, I think.

 

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Don't see a lot of what is being referenced there either.

 

 

6.6.5 180-DEGREE SAFETY PLANE: 

6.6.5.1 A competitor that allows the muzzle of a firearm to break the 180-Degree Safety Plane will be issued a match DQ.

Exception: Except with a pistol while holstered, drawing and reholstering. 

Definition: The 180-Degree safety plane is defined by an arc both horizontal and vertical that is created when the competitor is standing facing squarely downrange and parallel to, the designated backstop used on the bay to define the 180-Degree safety line on that particular stage. 

Note: Any position where the muzzle points back towards the mouth of the bay past the designated 180-Degree safety line is a violation of this rule and considered an unsafe action.

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10 hours ago, Garmil said:

6.6.5 180-DEGREE SAFETY PLANE: 

6.6.5.1 A competitor that allows the muzzle of a firearm to break the 180-Degree Safety Plane will be issued a match DQ.

Definition: The 180-Degree safety plane is defined by an arc both horizontal and vertical that is created when the competitor is standing facing squarely downrange and parallel to, the designated backstop used on the bay to define the 180-Degree safety line on that particular stage. ...

Thank you.  I did state it backwards, but that's the rule.  It does not require the muzzle to be pointed uprange, but only to break the plane, defined by the competitor's position.

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Is that how you read it? I read it as  that is how the plane is defined not that the plane constantly moves with the shooter...

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Posted (edited)

I don't understand the difference you are describing.  The plane MUST move with the shooter, otherwise he could aim significantly backwards once he's progressed to the forward part of the course.

Edited by MAC702

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The plane applies to the whole shooting bay forward and back I agree with that.  I'm talking about as the shooters body turns the line is there with him but it's on the original plane. I don't see how the shooters body position is relevant with the exception of sweeping, it's still just the muzzle direction.

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Okay, I get what you are picturing.  Basically, you are equating a muzzle straight down (or even angled slightly downrange but firmly pointed at dirt) would be okay for the shooter to get fully in front of during a maneuver, the same way that you can pull back a gun with your strong hand while your weak hand goes downrange of the muzzle to open a door or something, as long as you don't sweep yourself.  Hmmmm.

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Posted (edited)

Sorry for the late comment but I ran into @T Bacus today who let me know this thread was out here. 

I was the RO. I have been competing in USPSA or 3 Gun for the last 15 years and have been a USPSA CRO for at least 13 years.

If anyone would have described what the guy did I would advise them it was a DQ, and frankly it didn't occur to me that someone could turn the wrong way and not be in violation of the 180 until I saw this guy.

He absolutely turned the wrong way and I was off to the side, at about 190 degree mark by the fence, so I had a good view of the angles. 

As he turned I clearly saw that his gun was straight up and down and he had it far enough out that he didn't look to be sweeping his feet. It was almost like the whole thing happened in slow motion but every time I replayed it he didn't point it up range. Again, I wouldn't believe it if I didn't see it, but I know what I saw.  

It took a conscious effort to not stop him. I allowed him to finish the stage, unload and show clear, and then I took him off to the side for several minutes to explain everything that was wrong with what he had just done and why he is very, very lucky to not have been stopped right then and there. I also found the MD and explained the situation to him. He agreed with my call (or lack thereof) although there was much shaking of heads while discussing. 

The shooter was allowed to continue, but ironically I was forced to DQ him on the last stage of the day when he very clearly broke the 180 while trying to dump his pistol in a bucket that was up range from the shooting position. 

It certainly made me reflect on the previous call. I still think not DQing at first was correct; however, he clearly was not aware of his muzzle and it caught up with him. 

 

Edited by alma

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