NEW SCSA Rules ?

[ZackJones]

On 6/14/2017 at 8:38 AM, Thomas H said:

Any further word on when the new ruleset is going to be approved by the board?  Or at least a agenda topic for the board? 

 

I provided the most recent draft of the rules to Troy just prior to the GA State Steel Challenge match which was about a month ago. I'll ping him to see how his review is coming. Before they are officially approved we'll put them out for comment from anyone that wants to add their 2 cents worth.

 

[ZackJones]

This was just announced on the USPSA.ORG web site:

 

USPSA - Announcements    Member Comment Wanted - MG and SCSA Rules   The USPSA board of directors recently voted to publish the new editions of the USPSA Multigun rules and the Steel Challenge Shooting Association (SCSA) rules, per USPSA bylaw 16.2 Rules will be available for reading/download at these links: Steel Challenge Rules Multigun Rules Comments must be addressed to the following addresses: Steel Challenge Rules --  scsarules@feedback.uspsa.org (please note the rules are going to be renumbered to match the sequence in the Handgun and Multigun rules—this is a format change, and will not change the content) Multigun Rules -- multigunrules@feedback.uspsa.org Because we want to capture all of the feedback and comments in one location, accessible to all the board members, these email addresses will be the only officially recognized method of sending rules feedback.  Keeping all of the comments and suggestions in one central location will maintain continuity and integrity of the comment process.  We will not be able to respond to your comments on an individual basis, but major issues will likely be addressed via published statement.  The comment period will last for at least 30 days after the rules are published.   Once the comment period has closed, and comments have been accumulated and assimilated into the rules where needed, the board will vote on acceptance of the final rule sets prior to October 1, 2017.  The final rule sets will be published for 3 months before the projected effective date of 1 January, 2018. I’d like to thank Mike Carraher, Carl Schmidt, Pete Rensing, and Zack Jones for their volunteer efforts in producing these rules.  Without committed volunteers such as you, the character of our sport would be greatly diminished.  Thank you.   Troy McManus DNROI

[Pasley]

Here are three things (so far) that I find infuriating.  For no particularly good reason, in my opinion, they want the gun/holster rules to match USPSA.

Except:

 

3.1.3  No drawing from concealment.  Why does it matter if they "can't see why anyone would want to".  It's allowed in USPSA

3.3.2  Put the magazines anywhere on the belt.  Why diverge from USPSA rules here?

A 5.1    Holster rules are the same for other divisions so why have a different rule just for Open?  

 

 

Edited July 15, 2017 by Pasley

[Hammer002]

13 hours ago, Pasley said:

Here are three things (so far) that I find infuriating.  For no particularly good reason, in my opinion, they want the gun/holster rules to match USPSA.

Except:

 

3.1.3  No drawing from concealment.  Why does it matter if they "can't see why anyone would want to".  It's allowed in USPSA

3.3.2  Put the magazines anywhere on the belt.  Why diverge from USPSA rules here?

5.1    Holster rules are the same for other divisions so why have a different rule just for Open?  

 

 

In no way would I dismiss your opinion or say you are wrong, this is how I see it:

 

3.1.3:  In USPSA you have one draw for a stage.  In steel challenge you have five draws and at least five reholsters.  I personally don't think a concealment draw is appropriate for USPSA either simply from a safety perspective, but doing it 5 times per stage for 6 or so stages during a match is just asking for issues.  Concealment clothing getting caught in the reholster, gun getting caught up in concealment garb during draw, etc, etc.  Especially when they are trying to go fast.  I took a concealment training/qualification course once that was the same way.  Five starts of 3 to 5 rounds on target from different distances all from the low ready for the same reasons.

 

3.3.2:  I would guess because there is rarely active reloads happening during a stage/round of firing.  My guess would be to assist partially with multiple guns being used in a match with overlap on magazine restrictions that are really a mute point in steel challenge.  At worst someone might need one reload for an extremely poor run or malfunction, but really gains no advantage or suffers a disadvantage by having the magazines placed differently.  I just think it is decided it doesn't matter.

 

Honestly, I'm not understanding the discussion/conflict with the last one.  Again, not dismissing anyone else's feelings on the matters, just my perspective relating specifically to steel challenge.

 

Oh, and by the way, thanks for posting Zack

 

 

Edited July 15, 2017 by Hammer002

[Hammer002]

I have a question: 

 

Nevermind, found my own answer.

Edited July 15, 2017 by Hammer002

[Thomas H]

So....any further word on what it happening with the new rules?  Will they be going into effect on January 1st, 2018? 

 

....are they ready to go? 

[Hammer002]

3 hours ago, Thomas H said:

So....any further word on what it happening with the new rules?  Will they be going into effect on January 1st, 2018? 

 

....are they ready to go? 

 

USPSA Board of Directors Meeting, November 28, 2017

 

7. Steel Challenge Rules-DNROI/Committee

Special thanks to Steel Challenge National Program Director Zack Jones for his service to the Steel

Challenge Rules Committee.

Motion by Area 8, Second by Area 6, to approve the Multi-gun and Steel Challenge rules as amended by

the Board of Directors.

Rules attached in separate document accompanying these minutes.

Area 1-Y, Area 2-Y, Area 3-Y, Area 4-Y by proxy, Area 5-Y, Area 6-Y, Area 7-Y, Area 8-Y, President-Y

 

SCSA Rule Book

January 2018 Edition

Revised 11/26/2017

 

Reading the minutes approving them and the title of the new rules being January 2018, I assumed they were.  Would have expected the discussion to have noted a start time, but maybe its implied. 

[Thomas H]

Thanks for that---since there wasn't an actual announcement about that, and I (for once) didn't read the meeting minutes, I didn't catch that.  Appreciate it!

 

....I see two things in there that I don't understand, unfortunately.  Both of which I commented on during the review process....

 

1) Appendix E2: "All targets should be set to appear level at their designated height from the shooting box. This may be accomplished with survey equipment, laser levels, string lines, etc. A slight variation in height (+/- 2”) is allowed. Setting targets at height above ground may accomplish the desired level height, if the bay is flat and level. "

 

...so for all matches (level 1 and everything), we need adjust the height of each of our individual target holders (which in our case, like many clubs, means cutting 2x4s to different heights for every target for every match because we don't have the same stages on the same bays each time, and none of our bays are perfectly level nor do we have designated specific shooting box areas so even within the same bay so the targets aren't always going to be in the same spot) using a laser level or equivalent from the shooting box.   We can't just make the target heights match from the target end, they have to be with 2" of the set height with regard to the shooting box.  At local matches.  Wow.

That's...something that I bet isn't remotely going to happen at most club matches.  At all.    (I wonder how many clubs have survey equipment available for local matches?)

 

For level II matches, sure.  Annoying, but a state championship should have the exact stages.  Level I, though....?

 

2)  False starts, 7.1.1:  "In the event that a competitor begins his attempt at the course of fire prematurely (“false start” prior to the issuance of the start signal) the Range Officer will, as soon as possible, stop and restart the competitor once the course of fire has been restored. Attempt means the gun is drawn and/or shots fired, but the timer has not been started."

 

So if the gun is not drawn, it isn't a false start so the competitor is going to be penalized for creeping if the beep eventually happens?  I can think of numerous times I've seen people obviously commit a false start--they reacted to a beep from a different stage, reacted to a shot heard, etc, so they moved their hands quickly to the gun to start to draw, but then realized their mistake, so they stopped before they drew, but in the meantime the RO had already hit the timer, so then they try to start up again---since they didn't draw prior to the start signal, this means they get a creeping penalty AND whatever time they get once they get back in gear and shoot the string?

 

I remember specifically saying that on this one, a "false start" is a quick attempt at reaching or drawing the gun (obviously different from creeping), and that the "gun is drawn and/or shots fired" part should be taken out because it wasn't needed and could create problems....but it wasn't.

 

So now people who accidentally false start and realize it before they draw (so they stop) are going to get larger penalties than people who false start, draw the gun, and start shooting.  That makes no sense.  If we see a false start, (no matter if the timer is hit or not), why aren't we just stopping the person, and re-starting the string of fire?

 

-----

 

The first problem I think is going to be a headache.  The second one, though, makes me kinda mad.  The way it is written, a bunch of people who accidentally false start (which is a mistake, not an attempt at cheating like creeping) are going to get a creeping penalty that they don't deserve because they didn't manage to get the gun drawn before the RO hit the timer.  (Probably because they realized their mistake and stopped.)  That's stupid.  And I _said_ that during the review time.

 

Edited December 20, 2017 by Thomas H

[ZackJones]

Sorry that everything you said during the review period wasn’t addressed to your satisfaction but there’s nothing that says it can’t be going forward.

 

ETA: There are some tweaks to those rules on the minutes page. The final version will be posted 1 Jan 2018 unless I can talk them into posting sooner.

[Thomas H]

1 hour ago, ZackJones said:

Sorry that everything you said during the review period wasn’t addressed to your satisfaction but there’s nothing that says it can’t be going forward.

 

ETA: There are some tweaks to those rules on the minutes page. The final version will be posted 1 Jan 2018 unless I can talk them into posting sooner.

 

It wasn't that everything I suggested should have automatically been done--there were plenty of things that I said that were merely opinions, and even if I don't agree, it isn't that my opinion should carry the day. 

 

What makes me annoyed (about that second one---I think the first is a bad idea, but that's just my opinion so while I disagree, that's the way it goes) is that the second one is going to penalize people for simple mistakes as if they were attempting to cheat, and sets a requirement bar that most people (that I've seen, as a CRO) don't reach. Most false starts that I've seen don't get the gun out of the holster before the shooter realizes their mistake.  And in most of those cases, the RO _has_ hit the timer sometime in there.  (Not always, but often.) 

 

Is that not what other people are seeing for false starts?  (Not creeping.)

 

I'm not seeing any tweaks on the minutes page....where should I be looking?  Part 7 says "as amended" but I don't find anything attached other than the rulebook itself---does that already have the tweaks in it?  Or are there other things I should be looking for?

 

 

[ZackJones]

I’m using my phone so this reply will be short. The new rule book has corrections that were discovered after the the rules were reviewed and approved. For example in the division appendixes you’ll see references to rule 5.x.x and we don’t have that rule. When I get to a computer I’ll post a longer reply.

[RickT]

I think the rules are silent about target position accuracy, but logically consistent with a tolerance on target height there should be (Level II and above) a position accuracy requirement, probably specified in terms of angle and range (as opposed to x,y).  Matters not a wit to us average, club-level shooters in any event.

[Hammer002]

On ‎12‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 9:04 AM, Thomas H said:

Thanks for that---since there wasn't an actual announcement about that, and I (for once) didn't read the meeting minutes, I didn't catch that.  Appreciate it!

 

....I see two things in there that I don't understand, unfortunately.  Both of which I commented on during the review process....

 

1) Appendix E2: "All targets should be set to appear level at their designated height from the shooting box. This may be accomplished with survey equipment, laser levels, string lines, etc. A slight variation in height (+/- 2”) is allowed. Setting targets at height above ground may accomplish the desired level height, if the bay is flat and level. "

 

...so for all matches (level 1 and everything), we need adjust the height of each of our individual target holders (which in our case, like many clubs, means cutting 2x4s to different heights for every target for every match because we don't have the same stages on the same bays each time, and none of our bays are perfectly level nor do we have designated specific shooting box areas so even within the same bay so the targets aren't always going to be in the same spot) using a laser level or equivalent from the shooting box.   We can't just make the target heights match from the target end, they have to be with 2" of the set height with regard to the shooting box.  At local matches.  Wow.

That's...something that I bet isn't remotely going to happen at most club matches.  At all.    (I wonder how many clubs have survey equipment available for local matches?)

 

For level II matches, sure.  Annoying, but a state championship should have the exact stages.  Level I, though....?

 

2)  False starts, 7.1.1:  "In the event that a competitor begins his attempt at the course of fire prematurely (“false start” prior to the issuance of the start signal) the Range Officer will, as soon as possible, stop and restart the competitor once the course of fire has been restored. Attempt means the gun is drawn and/or shots fired, but the timer has not been started."

 

So if the gun is not drawn, it isn't a false start so the competitor is going to be penalized for creeping if the beep eventually happens?  I can think of numerous times I've seen people obviously commit a false start--they reacted to a beep from a different stage, reacted to a shot heard, etc, so they moved their hands quickly to the gun to start to draw, but then realized their mistake, so they stopped before they drew, but in the meantime the RO had already hit the timer, so then they try to start up again---since they didn't draw prior to the start signal, this means they get a creeping penalty AND whatever time they get once they get back in gear and shoot the string?

 

I remember specifically saying that on this one, a "false start" is a quick attempt at reaching or drawing the gun (obviously different from creeping), and that the "gun is drawn and/or shots fired" part should be taken out because it wasn't needed and could create problems....but it wasn't.

 

So now people who accidentally false start and realize it before they draw (so they stop) are going to get larger penalties than people who false start, draw the gun, and start shooting.  That makes no sense.  If we see a false start, (no matter if the timer is hit or not), why aren't we just stopping the person, and re-starting the string of fire?

 

-----

 

The first problem I think is going to be a headache.  The second one, though, makes me kinda mad.  The way it is written, a bunch of people who accidentally false start (which is a mistake, not an attempt at cheating like creeping) are going to get a creeping penalty that they don't deserve because they didn't manage to get the gun drawn before the RO hit the timer.  (Probably because they realized their mistake and stopped.)  That's stupid.  And I _said_ that during the review time.

 

 

I don't think the false start is implying a penalty, is it?  I thought it was just a restart.  Creeping, to me, has always been the slow, steady, purposeful movement toward the gun or off the flag.  For clarity, because this happens a lot in exactly the way you mentioned, I thought when they mistakenly went for the gun before a beep without drawing, as an RO you just waited for them to laugh at themselves and reset.  If they actually mistakenly began the course of fire it was a reshoot.  I haven't seen a penalty ever applied for this?  Creeping is supposed to be a purposeful act, or are we saying the same thing?  A guy who slowly starts moving toward the gun upon hearing stand by and continues to do so up until the beep is creeping.  The guy standing there without moving, but suddenly begins to draw as though to have heard the beep, or even begins to shoot has false started and is not penalized.  Are you seeing penalties for this?

 

On ‎12‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 12:31 PM, ZackJones said:

I’m using my phone so this reply will be short. The new rule book has corrections that were discovered after the the rules were reviewed and approved. For example in the division appendixes you’ll see references to rule 5.x.x and we don’t have that rule. When I get to a computer I’ll post a longer reply.

 

Thanks for the heads up, Zack.  And thanks for all the work you put into this.  I especially liked some of the stage set up standards.  Thomas has a point, but I have seen some bad form out there and when something is said the immediate response is, "well, the rules don't specify set up other than the measurements."

[Thomas H]

9 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

 

I don't think the false start is implying a penalty, is it?  I thought it was just a restart.  Creeping, to me, has always been the slow, steady, purposeful movement toward the gun or off the flag.  For clarity, because this happens a lot in exactly the way you mentioned, I thought when they mistakenly went for the gun before a beep without drawing, as an RO you just waited for them to laugh at themselves and reset.  If they actually mistakenly began the course of fire it was a reshoot.  I haven't seen a penalty ever applied for this?  Creeping is supposed to be a purposeful act, or are we saying the same thing?  A guy who slowly starts moving toward the gun upon hearing stand by and continues to do so up until the beep is creeping.  The guy standing there without moving, but suddenly begins to draw as though to have heard the beep, or even begins to shoot has false started and is not penalized.  Are you seeing penalties for this?

 

It is under the section for procedural penalties, and defines a false start attempt as something where the draw and/or shots are completed/occur.  IF it is an attempt, then it is a reshoot.

 

If it is NOT an "attempt" under that definition, then you are stuck with "A competitor who is creeping (e.g. moving hands towards the firearm, or physically moving to a more advantageous shooting position or posture at the start signal)"  which gets a procedural penalty (and you'll note that the definition of creeping doesn't have anything about speed in it).

 

It is only NOT a procedural if it can be defined as a false start attempt---everything else, due to that definition of creeping, would be creeping.    So it'll be a procedural penalty if the person's false start isn't soon/fast enough to at least get the gun drawn.

 

That's the problem I was originally attempting to point out during the review period.  The "false start" definition was too stringent, and the "creeping" definition so loose, that most cases of false start that I see in matches would actually end up being hammered as creeping, even though it obviously wasn't.  But since the gun doesn't get drawn most of the time for false starts, it can't be a false start attempt according to the definition in the rules---which means no reshoot and a procedural for creeping.

 

 

[Hammer002]

Ok, yeah, I was tracking with you then.  I see where you are going, as someone could start with the penalties when it wasn't warranted.  I just haven't seen someone chase that yet.  I have seen guys start to slowly move and I follow some of the more experienced ROs I have seen that will just repeat Are you ready. I could see where I rule clarification could help.

[zzt]

I don't get the distinction being bandied about.  Creeping is 'usually' unintentional, and usually slow.  I see it most when the interval between SB and beep is in the 3~4 second range.  A False Start is a real, not anticipatory move in response to external stimuli other than the RO's start beep.  The RO can hear that stimuli and knows it was a true false start.  Even if the gun wasn't drawn, I would not assess a procedural.  Failing that, 'false starts' in anticipation of the RO's beep is creeping and deserves the procedural.  So far, it has been easy to tell the difference. 

[Pasley]

Any opinions on when the RO has been giving the commands at a fairly consistent cadence and then out of the blue goes much faster or much slower?

[zzt]

P, I vary the delay between 1 and 4 seconds all the time.  I don't want the shooter to anticipate the beep.  It drives me crazy when an RO running me gives the same delay all the time.

 

If it's the cadence of the commands you are questioning, that is determined by the shooter.  If they are ready when you ask, give the SB command, then the beep.

[Thomas H]

16 hours ago, zzt said:

I don't get the distinction being bandied about.  Creeping is 'usually' unintentional, and usually slow.  I see it most when the interval between SB and beep is in the 3~4 second range.  A False Start is a real, not anticipatory move in response to external stimuli other than the RO's start beep.  The RO can hear that stimuli and knows it was a true false start.  Even if the gun wasn't drawn, I would not assess a procedural.  Failing that, 'false starts' in anticipation of the RO's beep is creeping and deserves the procedural.  So far, it has been easy to tell the difference. 

 

How is a false start creeping?  Either it is a false start (they are going for the gun to start their run) or it is creeping (trying to get to a better position before the start signal).  The fact that you didn't hear a stimuli doesn't mean there wasn't one.  As such, the "Failing that, 'false starts' in anticipation of the RO's beep is creeping and deserves the procedural" statement is something I don't understand---it contradicts what you have just said that creeping was!

 

 

13 hours ago, zzt said:

P, I vary the delay between 1 and 4 seconds all the time.  I don't want the shooter to anticipate the beep.  It drives me crazy when an RO running me gives the same delay all the time.

 

And yet apparently now, the SC rules wants the RO to have the same amount of delay, which is something I don't understand at all, and is like to cause a LOT more of the types of false starts that you mention above that don't begin due to an external stimuli.

 

New rule wording: 

"5.3.3 “Stand by” This command should be followed by the start signal within 1 to 4 seconds. It is recommended that the start signal be consistent for each string started for a given competitor—a cadence is desirable in Steel Challenge. The interval may change between competitors, however."

 

I'll do it, but I don't understand why "a cadence is desirable in Steel Challenge."  At all.

[Scootertheshooter]

I agree part of the challenge is the unknown .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[zzt]

4 hours ago, Thomas H said:

New rule wording: 

"5.3.3 “Stand by” This command should be followed by the start signal within 1 to 4 seconds. It is recommended that the start signal be consistent for each string started for a given competitor—a cadence is desirable in Steel Challenge. The interval may change between competitors, however."

 

That makes no sense to me either.  However, I have not read the new rules yet.  I'm waiting for the official, spell checked, edited version so I won't have to unlearn anything.  I won't be ROing any SC matches 'til March, so there will be plenty of time.

[zzt]

4 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

How is a false start creeping?  Either it is a false start (they are going for the gun to start their run) or it is creeping (trying to get to a better position before the start signal).  The fact that you didn't hear a stimuli doesn't mean there wasn't one.  As such, the "Failing that, 'false starts' in anticipation of the RO's beep is creeping and deserves the procedural" statement is something I don't understand---it contradicts what you have just said that creeping was!

 Think of it this way.  A true false start occurs, and the gun is drawn. For whatever the reason, there is no penalty and a forced reshoot.  Actual creeping gets assessed a procedural.  A False start, for whatever reason, that does not result in a draw before the beep does not get a Stop and reshoot.  If allowed to continue without penalty, he gains an unfair advantage.  So as far as I'm concerned (or until the CRO or MD at the match tells me differently) any movement before the beep and before the draw is 'creeping' and I'll assess a procedural.  I don't see any other fair way to handle it.  Let them challenge the procedural and we will see what happens.

 

I'm pretty confident this will be sorted out by March.  My first SC shoot will be the March East Coast Steel Challenge series in March.  David is really good at explaining the new rules at the match briefing, and making sure the CROs and ROs are executing properly.

[dmshozer1]

50 minutes ago, zzt said:

 Think of it this way.  A true false start occurs, and the gun is drawn. For whatever the reason, there is no penalty and a forced reshoot.  Actual creeping gets assessed a procedural.  A False start, for whatever reason, that does not result in a draw before the beep does not get a Stop and reshoot.  If allowed to continue without penalty, he gains an unfair advantage.  So as far as I'm concerned (or until the CRO or MD at the match tells me differently) any movement before the beep and before the draw is 'creeping' and I'll assess a procedural.  I don't see any other fair way to handle it.  Let them challenge the procedural and we will see what happens.

 

I'm pretty confident this will be sorted out by March.  My first SC shoot will be the March East Coast Steel Challenge series in March.  David is really good at explaining the new rules at the match briefing, and making sure the CROs and ROs are executing properly.

Starting to sound like a IDPA match,

Lots of different RO's with lots of different interpretations of a rule.

Hope it gets straightened out so it is black or white.

Five draws per shooter at a match! This could become a mess!

[AzShooter]

Sounds like some people are trying to become Range Lawyers ( I had a different description but people would think it politically incorrect).  Keep the integrity of the match and don't sweat the small stuff.  Steel Challenge has been doing it right for what, 30 years?  Some small changes may be needed but don't try to make it too difficult to enjoy or you will make people stop coming.

[jkrispies]

11 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

How is a false start creeping?  Either it is a false start (they are going for the gun to start their run) or it is creeping (trying to get to a better position before the start signal).  The fact that you didn't hear a stimuli doesn't mean there wasn't one.  As such, the "Failing that, 'false starts' in anticipation of the RO's beep is creeping and deserves the procedural" statement is something I don't understand---it contradicts what you have just said that creeping was!

 

 

 

And yet apparently now, the SC rules wants the RO to have the same amount of delay, which is something I don't understand at all, and is like to cause a LOT more of the types of false starts that you mention above that don't begin due to an external stimuli.

 

New rule wording: 

"5.3.3 “Stand by” This command should be followed by the start signal within 1 to 4 seconds. It is recommended that the start signal be consistent for each string started for a given competitor—a cadence is desirable in Steel Challenge. The interval may change between competitors, however."

 

I'll do it, but I don't understand why "a cadence is desirable in Steel Challenge."  At all.

 

Steel Challenge has traditionally maintained a focus on shooting as fast as possible, not playing "Gotcha" with the buzzer.