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NEW SCSA Rules ?


hornetx40

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IMO it should wait until after the nationals. Apply new rules less than a month before the national match is bad. Heck I think the two months between the new CO rules and the Optics nationals is too little time.

 

We don't want to be like the IDPA which likes to revise the rules days before their national matches.

Edited by PPGMD
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Unlike the CO change or the many, many IDPA changes, the updates to the SCSA rulebook don't change anything substantive in terms of what the competitors can do---that pretty much stays exactly the same.  (Note:  This is based on the several draft revisions I've seen thus far---I'm not saying I know everything about what may change.)

What changes (at least from the draft versions I've seen thus far) are a number of things that make rules more clear and less likely to be mistaken or mis-applied, that in general help with match administration.    Divisions are clarified (not limited or changed), rules regarding angling steel, post height, painting, and running shooters are clarified and simplified, and things like that.

 

Everyone will want to read the new rules, sure.  But from the latest draft I've read, a shooter in a match today can act exactly the same in a match under the new ruleset without any issue---with it much less likely for there to be issues and questions from a match admin/stage RO perspective.

 

The rules we currently have are pretty good.  Most aren't going to change.  I too would prefer the new rules out earlier, but that's because I like the changes and want my folks to be using them now, though of course I'd like them to also be more comfortable with them before we hold our Level II match at the end of April.  But even if they come out two weeks before our match, I'm not worried about there being issues.

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4 hours ago, PPGMD said:

IMO it should wait until after the nationals. Apply new rules less than a month before the national match is bad. Heck I think the two months between the new CO rules and the Optics nationals is too little time.

 

That's a thought. For the most part it's updating and clarification. I can always do like I did with SC State and AL State and formally request Troy approve us to deviate from 2/2/1 on Showdown and flag placement in front of each box. 

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Isn't changing the equipment rules to use the division rules from USPSA kind of a VERY BIG change? This changes several divisons, especially Single Stack, where now the holster height and position rules would apply. If I am shooting SS at Nationals using the correct holster position from the USPSA rule and someone else is using the old rule of "vicinity of the waist" and is outside the allowed position and height of USPSA rules shouldn't they be bumped to Open for failing to comply? Same for Production as far as holster behind the hip bone, etc.

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It also drastically changes open div. If open gun holsters and position has to follow USPSA rules. Open used to be truly a race division.....bring what ya want shoot how ya want as long as it was a safe position it was legal....Now we are restricting and measuring holster position......this is not what steel challenge has been ever for the open division. Steel challenge does not need to follow every USPSA rule....It is a totally different type of shooting. It just so happens that many shooters cross over and shoot both disciplines.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for most if not all of the other changes. Most needed to be put back in the rules. I just don't like restricting the open division shooters. That's the alcohol dragster of the sport. Don't tame it down to bracket racing.

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as far as implementation. If it is done part way with only some changes it will just cause confusion. Institute the rules all at once on whatever date that is decided. Some clubs are already using the new flag positions while others are not.

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3 hours ago, ZackJones said:

Good points. I think the wise thing for Nationals and WSSC is to run under 2013 rules with the exception of flag position and shooting order for Showdown. I will discuss with Troy.

 

Thanks Zack! Would be nice to know, hopefully sooner than later. Have had to change my dryfire routine so I can specifically practice draws for the USPSA Single Stack holster position, which is considerably different than my open/limited holster.

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58 minutes ago, wgj3 said:

I assume you could always just use your SS gun in "Limited" to allow more holster placement options though...?

 

Not really since I am also shooting Limited at the match. I also don't want to be shooting from the SS holster position if I don't have to and if no one else in the SS division is.

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21 hours ago, Nimitz said:

Be careful here ... In the rimfire world you can no longer start with your finger inside the trigger guard but off the trigger under the new rules .... That is a big change  .... Albeit only one ...

 

I'm actually really happy about that particular change, because "off the trigger but in the trigger guard" has meant, for a number of people I've seen "I'm going to argue with you when you say I was on the trigger by saying "no, it wasn't actually touching".

"Outside the trigger guard" is an easy, simple, yes/no situation that is a lot easier for the RO to monitor and judge, IMO.

 

The part about the different holster requirements didn't really occur to me, actually.  Pretty much everyone near me uses their USPSA rig to shoot the centerfire divisions, so the SS guys use their normal SS holsters.  As such, I didn't even think that other people would find that an issue.  Is this really common? 

As for Open---I'm not sure I agree that it "drastically changes open div".  The gun itself doesn't change at all, and the vast majority of open holsters (as built) fit right in with USPSA Open requirements.  About the only thing that would seem to me to be something people would have to fix is the "width outward from the belt" part.  Other than that, do THAT many people use drop holsters or something similar?  (I wouldn't think so, since we are starting from the surrender position, and farther down isn't helpful there.)  Other than the outward width, what major differences do people see?

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1 hour ago, Thomas H said:

 

I'm actually really happy about that particular change, because "off the trigger but in the trigger guard" has meant, for a number of people I've seen "I'm going to argue with you when you say I was on the trigger by saying "no, it wasn't actually touching".

"Outside the trigger guard" is an easy, simple, yes/no situation that is a lot easier for the RO to monitor and judge, IMO.

 

The part about the different holster requirements didn't really occur to me, actually.  Pretty much everyone near me uses their USPSA rig to shoot the centerfire divisions, so the SS guys use their normal SS holsters.  As such, I didn't even think that other people would find that an issue.  Is this really common? 

As for Open---I'm not sure I agree that it "drastically changes open div".  The gun itself doesn't change at all, and the vast majority of open holsters (as built) fit right in with USPSA Open requirements.  About the only thing that would seem to me to be something people would have to fix is the "width outward from the belt" part.  Other than that, do THAT many people use drop holsters or something similar?  (I wouldn't think so, since we are starting from the surrender position, and farther down isn't helpful there.)  Other than the outward width, what major differences do people see?

There are many shooters that only shoot SCSA. Under the current rules Open div. holsters only have to be in the vicinity of the waist. That allows for shooters to set there guns further off the belt and even pointing out in front of them. Now suddenly some want to follow USPSA rules in SCSA. The problem with that is it Drastically changes the division. Yes a lot of shooters use the same setup that they use in USPSA but that really has no bearing on the fact that these changes drastically change things for a lot of shooters. This isn't about convenience for USPSA shooters. This is about real changes to one sport to match another in equipment restrictions. If we suddenly told all of the USPSA shooters there setups were no longer legal in USPSA because we want our rules to match cowboy action shooters what kind of outcry would we hear. One sport has nothing to do with the other. People should quit trying to make them the same. 

An open steel challenge gun built for steel challenge is not the same as a USPSA Open gun. They are totally different animals.

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9 minutes ago, hornetx40 said:

There are many shooters that only shoot SCSA. Under the current rules Open div. holsters only have to be in the vicinity of the waist. That allows for shooters to set there guns further off the belt and even pointing out in front of them. Now suddenly some want to follow USPSA rules in SCSA. The problem with that is it Drastically changes the division. Yes a lot of shooters use the same setup that they use in USPSA but that really has no bearing on the fact that these changes drastically change things for a lot of shooters. This isn't about convenience for USPSA shooters. This is about real changes to one sport to match another in equipment restrictions. If we suddenly told all of the USPSA shooters there setups were no longer legal in USPSA because we want our rules to match cowboy action shooters what kind of outcry would we hear. One sport has nothing to do with the other. People should quit trying to make them the same. 

An open steel challenge gun built for steel challenge is not the same as a USPSA Open gun. They are totally different animals.

 

USPSA Open holsters can point out in front of them.  Many do, actually.

 

The "further off the belt" part I get.  But....how many Open shooters have dropped holsters or something like that?  I mean, looking at the various race holsters I've seen from SCSA videos, they all pretty much look like that standard race holsters everyone uses.   Is there another type of holster that is commonly in use?

 

You have used the word "drastically" a number of times.  What other holsters are people using in Open division?  Do you have any pictures or videos that I could see?  I'm not being sarcastic, I have just never seen any Open holster that different----and your argument was "if we suddenly told all of the USPSA shooters" ----how many SCSA shooters have holsters that don't fit these requirements?  What are the holsters like?  How are they different?

 

Can you show me an example of an Open SC gun built for SC?  And tell me how it is different from a USPSA Open gun?  I mean, I've seen plenty of people use different 1911s with dots for SC, people shooting pin guns made for pins and SC, etc.  They can still use the exact same guns, nothing has changed---this is Open.  If you can drag it up to the line and fire it like a pistol in a pistol-caliber, it is legal.

 

In other words----the division requirements for the guns haven't changed at all.  So that can't be the "drastic change" that you are talking about for Open division.  So it has to be the holsters.  Can you show me some of the holsters that will be no longer legal in SC that are commonly used for this to be drastic? You say that these changes "drastically change things for a lot of shooters"---what holsters that a lot of shooters use will no longer be legal?

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any change in gun position is a drastic change once you have been using a set up for years. I use a holster that is set 4 or 5 inches off the front of my leg. I have shot with many people that only shoot steel. There are people that use rigs that set the gun pointing down range 8 or 10" in front of there waist. 

A  gun built for steel is way lighter and built to use sub minor loads. The class used to be shoot whatever you want how ever you want as long as its safe. Now for some reason some want to try to even the playing field by adding more restrictions. That's not competition. Soon USPSA will be giving out participation trophies.

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11 hours ago, mwx40x40 said:

So if "Open" is not USPSA "Open", should we just not go back to Open and Iron Sight division? It would be simple and clean.

 

This is what I think it should be.  That and put your holster wherever and however you want.

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18 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

USPSA Open holsters can point out in front of them.  Many do, actually.

 

The "further off the belt" part I get.  But....how many Open shooters have dropped holsters or something like that?  I mean, looking at the various race holsters I've seen from SCSA videos, they all pretty much look like that standard race holsters everyone uses.   Is there another type of holster that is commonly in use?

 

You have used the word "drastically" a number of times.  What other holsters are people using in Open division?  Do you have any pictures or videos that I could see?  I'm not being sarcastic, I have just never seen any Open holster that different----and your argument was "if we suddenly told all of the USPSA shooters" ----how many SCSA shooters have holsters that don't fit these requirements?  What are the holsters like?  How are they different?

 

Can you show me an example of an Open SC gun built for SC?  And tell me how it is different from a USPSA Open gun?  I mean, I've seen plenty of people use different 1911s with dots for SC, people shooting pin guns made for pins and SC, etc.  They can still use the exact same guns, nothing has changed---this is Open.  If you can drag it up to the line and fire it like a pistol in a pistol-caliber, it is legal.

 

In other words----the division requirements for the guns haven't changed at all.  So that can't be the "drastic change" that you are talking about for Open division.  So it has to be the holsters.  Can you show me some of the holsters that will be no longer legal in SC that are commonly used for this to be drastic? You say that these changes "drastically change things for a lot of shooters"---what holsters that a lot of shooters use will no longer be legal?

 

This gun was purposely built for Steel Challenge by STI.  This is not a gun you'd want to use in the USPSA Open division unless you plan to shoot 'open-minor'

 

I'd have no issue with just "optic division" & "iron sight division" in the center fire match.  After all, that's exactly what we do for the other 3 matches (rim fire pistol; rim fire rifle & PCC). 

 

Why are we not standardized across all 4 matches?  The multiple divisions within the center fire match is to accommodate USPSA divisions.  What real competitive equity issues are there between the iron sight divisions within the center fire match (besides maybe revolver)?

 

Bill:

    You comments are spot on.  I'd really wish we'd stop trying to make Steel Challenge look like USPSA ... particularly if the over riding reason is convenience or commonality ...  One of the unintended consequences to USPSA owning Steel Challenge ....

 

Maybe a couple of us can get together and USPSA will sell us Steel Challenge?

STI Steelmaster1.jpg

Edited by Nimitz
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9 hours ago, hornetx40 said:

any change in gun position is a drastic change once you have been using a set up for years. I use a holster that is set 4 or 5 inches off the front of my leg. I have shot with many people that only shoot steel. There are people that use rigs that set the gun pointing down range 8 or 10" in front of there waist. 

A  gun built for steel is way lighter and built to use sub minor loads. The class used to be shoot whatever you want how ever you want as long as its safe. Now for some reason some want to try to even the playing field by adding more restrictions. That's not competition. Soon USPSA will be giving out participation trophies.

 

....the rules for guns haven't changed at all.  Nothing in the new ruleset makes ANY difference for the guns of Open.  So...I'm not understanding what they keep getting mentioned by people, when things haven't changed at all for the guns.  All of those guns are still legal, so that isn't an argument against the ruleset change.  (I was asking if was any difference in these purpose-built SC guns that would be limited by any rule change.  And there aren't any.)

Any change in gun position is a drastic change?  Ok.  I disagree (quite strongly), but okay.  I'm thinking that most people will NOT think that changing a holster position "Drastically changes the division." 

 

If the rig points the gun downrange 8 or 10 inches in front of their waist, this isn't changed by the rules either.  Still legal, just like it was before.

 

So...like I said in the beginning, the only part that is changed is how much the can be offset from your waist? Is there any other part of the holsters that you are mentioning that will need to change?  And this is what what your phrasing of: "Now for some reason some want to try to even the playing field by adding more restrictions. That's not competition. Soon USPSA will be giving out participation trophies." ....comes from?

That seems like quite a leap.

 

I personally don't care if the holster rules for Open stay what they were, or instead change to USPSA rules.  I actually agree that since it is Open, as long as the holster is safe, it probably should be all good.  This, however, doesn't make me agree with the idea that limiting how far the holster can be offset from the belt drastically changes the division, is about evening the playing field, making it "not competition," or in any way heading down the road to participation trophies.

 

Seriously:  Other than the amount of offset, what other things are limited?

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29 minutes ago, Nimitz said:

 

I'd have no issue with just "optic division" & "iron sight division" in the center fire match.  After all, that's exactly what we do for the other 3 matches (rim fire pistol; rim fire rifle & PCC). 

 

That is an excellent point that I hadn't considered.  A guy shooting an out of the box Ruger or Buckmark competes in the same division as the guys with all the fancy go fast parts.

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when looking specifically at the center fire match I don't see any real competitive equity differences between Limited, Production & Single Stack ... you could argue revolver is different since they only have 6 rds before a reload is necessary but ....

 

optic vs Iron sight is the big deal but not really anything else ..... even holsters are not an issue .... plenty of people can produce just as fast a draw regardless of holster type ...

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Thomas H  No where did I say that the new rules changed the guns....I did say that it would change the division.

I do care if the rules switch to "Like USPSA" this is Steel challenge shooting it is not the same. Next SCSA will be running through stages oh wait that is called pro-am. You see different sports have different rules we don't need to make it all mesh. If someone doesn't want to build a steel specific gun thats fine run what ya brung but quit trying to make all of the action sports the same. The differences is what make them all attractive. 

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