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IronArcher

How much is exactly zero movement?

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So I hear from all the shooting gods that you need to be able to pull the trigger without moving the sights..... AT ALL.

As it seems most people are exaggerating when they say "at all".

So how much is zero to you?

I took a video of me dry firing my DA pull SHO.... needed the other hand to hold the phone.... this makes lining up the sights much harder than you might expect.

I think it's getting good (for a dude that bought his first center fire semi-auto about 1 year ago), but it's not "no movement AT ALL"

Can you make a vid showing how it should look?

Again, most time spent is trying to line sights up with the camera. 3 preped pulls, and the last (again after getting lined back up) I tried to pull very fast to simulate a close shot on the draw.

https://vimeo.com/198449572

I think I need to try this in slo mo.

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I've been shooting for 63 years and never heard of "Zero Movement" ...

If you're shooting precision rifle, I guess you want "ZM", but with action pistol,

you want the gun to move no more than out of the A-Zone at whatever distance

that target happens to be.

In USPSA, you're looking for all the speed you can muster, and still hit th

A-Zone.   (If the target is 5 feet away, that allows something on the order

of 100 MOA - quite a bit of movement.    :)   But, you still hit the A-Zone.

As you get to be 35 yards away, now you're looking to move no more than

15 - 20 MOA, and you'll still be in the A-Zone.

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cas   

^ All that video does is show how pointless that is. The gun and barrel angle moved all over the place and the coin didn't fall off. :D

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Sarge   

I remember dime drills in the Army. Pull the trigger on an M16 without the dime falling off the barrel. Astounded me how many guys couldn't do that! :)

AT ALL means at all right? With a pistol or even a rifle that's probably a pretty tough standard. If the gun vibrates at all , which it will, the sights move. No?

 

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SCTaylor   

Zero movement is a bit of a myth in our sport. We don't pull the trigger slow 98% of the time, We hammer the crap out of it!

Stoeger's talked about pulling the trigger as fast as possible with absolute minimum movement.


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The important thing is that the sights don't move outside of where you want the bullet to hit. So, it depends on the target. On a 5 yard open target I'll accept lots of movement. On a 25 yard headshot, not so much.

I think a good baseline to shoot for is to pull the trigger quickly on an 8 inch plate at 20 yards and not have the sights leave the plate.

Edited by Jake Di Vita

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12 minutes ago, Jake Di Vita said:

The important thing is that the sights don't move outside of where you want the bullet to hit. So, it depends on the target. On a 5 yard open target I'll accept lots of movement. On a 25 yard headshot, not so much.

I think a good baseline to shoot for is to pull the trigger quickly on an 8 inch plate at 20 yards and not have the sights leave the plate.

This makes so much more sense now... It absolutely baffled me how people could get zero movement on a DA pull.

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I suppose you can only consider movement CAUSED by pulling the trigger.
You can't hold the gun perfectly still, but does pulling the trigger have an effect?
I find when pulling it quickly, my release of the trigger has more effect than my pull... a good thing.


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I will add that as you get better at holding the gun still, you'll be surprised how aggressively and "wrong" you can pull the trigger while keeping the sights almost rock steady.

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I would agree.
Do note that much of the movement was due to trying to line up the sights while holding the camera though.
Surprisingly awkward LOL!


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wide45   

If you are doing it right, the sights are moving toward the center of the A zone while you are working the trigger.
Don't wait for a perfect sight picture before starting the trigger, and don't stop refining the sight picture until after the gun fires.

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The gun will never completely stop moving.  However, as you get better you will notice less movement.  Plus you will learn what movement is acceptable for a given shot.  Jake is correct that as you get better holding the gun, your trigger pull does not have to be perfect.  The big trap to avoid is snatching at the trigger to get the shot off as the sight oscillates through the precise aiming point.  (I noticed this more while shooting rifles offhand.)

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bsand   
I've been shooting for 63 years and never heard of "Zero Movement" ...

If you're shooting precision rifle, I guess you want "ZM", but with action pistol,

you want the gun to move no more than out of the A-Zone at whatever distance

that target happens to be.

In USPSA, you're looking for all the speed you can muster, and still hit th

A-Zone.   (If the target is 5 feet away, that allows something on the order

of 100 MOA - quite a bit of movement.       But, you still hit the A-Zone.

As you get to be 35 yards away, now you're looking to move no more than

15 - 20 MOA, and you'll still be in the A-Zone.


Even with precision rifles, you hover on the target and break the shot when your on target. That being for PRS matches/field shooting from improvised positions 10 rounds 90 seconds at distances of 100-800m. Same with service rifle competitions, freeze and pull trigger whne on target.

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benos   
On 1/7/2017 at 10:45 AM, Jake Di Vita said:

The important thing is that the sights don't move outside of where you want the bullet to hit. So, it depends on the target. On a 5 yard open target I'll accept lots of movement. On a 25 yard headshot, not so much.

There it is.

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Again, I'm not so much worried about holding the sights completely still. Just about pulling the trigger having zero effect on it.

Opinions on the following statement (in reference to trigger finger fundamentals only, not on being able to hold a perfect sight picture with zero movement):
" You MUST be able to pull the trigger straight back without moving the sights at all".


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45 minutes ago, IronArcher said:

Again, I'm not so much worried about holding the sights completely still. Just about pulling the trigger having zero effect on it.

Opinions on the following statement (in reference to trigger finger fundamentals only, not on being able to hold a perfect sight picture with zero movement):
" You MUST be able to pull the trigger straight back without moving the sights at all".


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How you pull the trigger is mostly irrelevant and sight movement is mostly irrelevant....the only thing that matters is where the gun is pointed when it goes off.

Edited by Jake Di Vita

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That is virtually the exact opposite of what I have been hearing from a bunch of GMs




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When it comes to gun accuracy, you're likely to get more value paying for an expensive trigger than an expensive barrel.  Metaphorically, That's sort of what this conversation boils down to. Your question as it relates to a double action pull:  the gun can wobble through 99% of the mile long DA pull as long as it's pointed where it's supposed to be in that last 1%, and you keep it steady through the lock time, ignition, etc. A somewhat exaggerated statement, yes, but the only moment that truly matters is the moment you choose to release the bullet.  Train your finger to know how to properly prep the trigger for that last "1%" and release it when everything is lined up perfectly.   And, at it's best moments, we're talking about fractions of a second.  

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I believe that a well developed grip does two things. The first is it effectively transfers the energy from recoil to the rest of your body, and the second is that you're able to point the gun where you want and hold it there while you pull the trigger less than perfectly. I think the ability to hold the gun on target regardless of how you're pulling the trigger is a skill and the more you train that skill the less conventional trigger control matters. I never think about prepping the trigger, gradually applying pressure, pulling straight back, isolating the trigger finger, or any of that other stuff. I align the sights to the target, then I smash the trigger without moving the gun....over and over. Hard shots mean I smash a little less quickly. It's reliable and repeatable under pressure for me. Ultimately I think this approach is much simpler than conventional wisdom about trigger control.

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I assume that this conversation stems from this video:

 I'm curious what folks opinions on it might be?  Brian?  

 

Edited by jkrispies

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I've felt this way for a couple years now, but yeah I agree with the video even though it has a click baity title. Aiming is only useless when you can't hold the gun still while pulling the trigger. As soon as you can, you reap the benefits of aiming.

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I suppose this video is applicable, but I was referring more to the teachings of Ben Stoeger, as well as the group discussions on the topic with his panel of GMs


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I got a lot of respect for Ben and those guys. Where do you see the disagreement between my method and their methods?

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They harp pretty hard on trigger control fundamentals.
That's pretty much where I heard the whole "you need to move the trigger STRAIGHT back without moving the sights at all".
Ben says it doesn't matter how you hold the gun (even shooting one upside down) as long as you don't move the sights when pulling the trigger.


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