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Jeff O

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Betting you are right.

Also betting I could hit that hammer at 1/2 cock and it won't go off either.

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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Prohttps://vimeo.com/199364182

So, I guess safe? Yeah I was too pussy to grab a mallet (didn't have one in the house) but seems pretty safe.

Also included a better "full" hammer drop as the last vid example was a bit exaggerated (unfair representation).

Again, it doesn't stop me, it gives no real advantage, and I'm not asking for a change to be made... just saying 1/2 isn't any harder or more dangerous.

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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Prohttps://vimeo.com/199364182

So, I guess safe? Yeah I was too pussy to grab a mallet (didn't have one in the house) but seems pretty safe.

Also included a better "full" hammer drop as the last vid example was a bit exaggerated (unfair representation).

Again, it doesn't stop me, it gives no real advantage, and I'm not asking for a change to be made... just saying 1/2 isn't any harder or more dangerous.


Wow just wow,

You can't fix stupid

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From the guy who whines that holding the trigger back while letting the hammer down equals "several" "tortured" steps that are also part of going to 1/2 cock, and thinks the general public can't figure out how to drop to 1/2 cock safely [emoji849]


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From the guy who whines that holding the trigger back while letting the hammer down equals "several" "tortured" steps that are also part of going to 1/2 cock, and thinks the general public can't figure out how to drop to 1/2 cock safely [emoji849]


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Well if you think beating on your gun with a hammer helps you convince others that you know better than IDPA, USPSA, and IPSC rules makers as well the people that made your gun, I'm out.

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It's a tool. If it would have dropped, I would have changed my tune.
If it would break, I can fix it.
Hammer didn't fall
Nothing broke
Nothing bent
Still not convinced I'm at risk if I put my gun at 1/2 cock.
I AM convinced getting to 1/2 cock is as easy if not easier than dropping fully... add that I can get off the trigger and FPB sooner... still looking for the negatives.
I'm not saying they don't exist, just that I haven't seen them.


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IDPA rule 8.2.1.1 means that your opinion of the relative safety of down vs half cock does not matter, if you want to shoot IDPA SSP. 

USPSA App D4 Special Conditions do not support a change of parent organizations with "fully decocked."  

 

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It's a tool. If it would have dropped, I would have changed my tune.
If it would break, I can fix it.
Hammer didn't fall
Nothing broke
Nothing bent
Still not convinced I'm at risk if I put my gun at 1/2 cock.
I AM convinced getting to 1/2 cock is as easy if not easier than dropping fully... add that I can get off the trigger and FPB sooner... still looking for the negatives.
I'm not saying they don't exist, just that I haven't seen them.


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Excellent logic, you should redo the test at full cock, you will most likely find it passes that test as well. Then you can argue that fully cocked and safety off is just as safe.

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IDPA rule 8.2.1.1 means that your opinion of the relative safety of down vs half cock does not matter, if you want to shoot IDPA SSP. 

USPSA App D4 Special Conditions do not support a change of parent organizations with "fully decocked."  

 



And I have mentioned repeatedly, that I am not trying to change the rules for either organization.
This is purely academic for me.


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Excellent logic, you should redo the test at full cock, you will most likely find it passes that test as well. Then you can argue that fully cocked and safety off is just as safe.

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Save for the fact that the hammer will drop with nothing more than a very short and light trigger pull with enough force to light a primer....


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Does any pro half cock people understand what is an inertia firing pin and why it was created ?

The idea with fully decocking the hammer is that when the hammer rest against the frame and slide then no matter what kind of blow the hammer receives the firing pin and primer will notget hit. Only a monumental hit to the front of the gun could move then gun but leave the firing pin in place and struck the primer. That is not very probable but we have created the firing pin blocks to safeguard also against that possibility.

With half-cock the hammer has some energy left if a heavy blow is directed to the hammer and half-cock notch breaks. The half-cock notch is only a fail-safe property like airbag in a car. You do not want to use i but it is there in case something bad happens.

Most half-cock notches on normal SA/DA-pistols will not last long a continuous use because they were designed for emergency-situations-only.

The newer decocker guns have beefed-up internals and often both a half cock notch AND a separate decocking stop for the hammer. If somebody wants that they just need to buy a decocker gun. Porblem solved.

CZ, Tanfoglio SA/DA-pistols etc were designed to be carried hammer fully down. If some European agencies can not teach their officers to properly use these guns then that is another sad story.

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Do you mean to say that "no matter what kind of blow the hammer receives, the firing pin *will not hit the primer*"?
That is how I understand how an inertial firing pin works.
As the hammer on my gun rests on the firing pin, and the retainer once the pin is flush with it.
Falling off of 1/2 cock wouldn't be enough to set the primer off even without a firing pin safety.


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You understood me correctly. If the hammer is resting on slide and frame then a hit to the hammer will not move the firing pin and therefore the firing pin will not hit the primer.

From half-cock notch it the hammer can hit the firing pin and the firing pin can hit the primer. The primer may or may not light the powder. Most gun manufacturers have stated in their manuals that half-cock notch is not be used as a safety. I believe they know best what they are talking about when writing user manuals for their own products.

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I'll accept that.
Why then do they even have a 1/2 cock position if it isn't safe?


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It's a safety encase the hammer slips while being manually cocked.

Well that's whet the CZ owners manual says anyway

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/16/2017 at 7:41 PM, IronArcher said:

So.... a safety of sorts?

Yes. But not for keeping the gun in that condition. It's safer to be hammer-on-slide if the gun is dropped.

 

In case of a mechanical failure of the sear-to-hammer fit (those surfaces wear, particularly in Tanfos) or an oprator's thumb slipping off the hammer just before it reaches the full-cock notch, you won't get a surprise bang.

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  • 3 months later...

I disagree, half cock is easy and in fact safer than having to hold the trigger all the way until the hammer is all the way forward.  On a pre-B CZ75, just hold the hammer and pull the trigger.  Let go of the trigger and you can actually let go of the hammer at this point.  The hammer will only go into half cock.  The only way the gun will go off is if you have to keep the trigger pulled, which is the only way to get it all the way forward.  That being said, there is a disadvantage to starting at half cock, especially if you are using a light hammer spring.  Having the full motion gives you a little more inertia and fewer light strikes.  I'm using an 8lb main w/ extended firing pin on my 75 and when starting at half cock I get light strikes but when I start all the way forward I don't get any.  (Winchester primers btw...)

 

I've not tried to hit the hammer to see if it goes off but I can tell you that after more than 20k through the gun in competition at full forward, the one time it slipped and went off really hurt, not to mention a DQ. :(

 

I'm not a fan of the rule simply because every gun that has a decocker takes it to half cock (safety cock) and my gun without a decocker does not, should not mean I have to start in an unsafe condition with no advantage whatsoever.

 

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  • 1 month later...
On ‎5‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 11:54 AM, af220wa said:

I disagree, half cock is easy and in fact safer than having to hold the trigger all the way until the hammer is all the way forward.  On a pre-B CZ75, just hold the hammer and pull the trigger.  Let go of the trigger and you can actually let go of the hammer at this point.  The hammer will only go into half cock.  The only way the gun will go off is if you have to keep the trigger pulled, which is the only way to get it all the way forward.  That being said, there is a disadvantage to starting at half cock, especially if you are using a light hammer spring.  Having the full motion gives you a little more inertia and fewer light strikes.  I'm using an 8lb main w/ extended firing pin on my 75 and when starting at half cock I get light strikes but when I start all the way forward I don't get any.  (Winchester primers btw...)

 

I've not tried to hit the hammer to see if it goes off but I can tell you that after more than 20k through the gun in competition at full forward, the one time it slipped and went off really hurt, not to mention a DQ. :(

 

I'm not a fan of the rule simply because every gun that has a decocker takes it to half cock (safety cock) and my gun without a decocker does not, should not mean I have to start in an unsafe condition with no advantage whatsoever.

 

 

Regarding the bolded sentence...  I don't believe there is any additional inertia when the hammer moves from off the FPS versus moving off half cock. 

 

I mean, doesn't the hammer have to STOP and reverse direction to fire? 

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I disagree, half cock is easy and in fact safer than having to hold the trigger all the way until the hammer is all the way forward.  On a pre-B CZ75, just hold the hammer and pull the trigger.  Let go of the trigger and you can actually let go of the hammer at this point.  The hammer will only go into half cock.  The only way the gun will go off is if you have to keep the trigger pulled, which is the only way to get it all the way forward.  That being said, there is a disadvantage to starting at half cock, especially if you are using a light hammer spring.  Having the full motion gives you a little more inertia and fewer light strikes.  I'm using an 8lb main w/ extended firing pin on my 75 and when starting at half cock I get light strikes but when I start all the way forward I don't get any.  (Winchester primers btw...)
 
I've not tried to hit the hammer to see if it goes off but I can tell you that after more than 20k through the gun in competition at full forward, the one time it slipped and went off really hurt, not to mention a DQ. [emoji20]
 
I'm not a fan of the rule simply because every gun that has a decocker takes it to half cock (safety cock) and my gun without a decocker does not, should not mean I have to start in an unsafe condition with no advantage whatsoever.
 

Um no

All decocked do not go to half cock. Yes CZ's and Sigs do, but not all.

You are not required to start in a I'm safe condition, you are requires to place the gun in its safest possible loaded condition. Lowering the hammer all the way may have some additional risk but after it is down it is NOT in a less safe condition.

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Um no

All decocked do not go to half cock. Yes CZ's and Sigs do, but not all.

You are not required to start in a I'm safe condition, you are requires to place the gun in its safest possible loaded condition. Lowering the hammer all the way may have some additional risk but after it is down it is NOT in a less safe condition.

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So.... with the hammer down, I need to engage my safety?
Safest possible loaded condition and all...


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14 hours ago, IronArcher said:

 


So.... with the hammer down, I need to engage my safety?
Safest possible loaded condition and all...


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I stand corrected, yes having the hammer all the way down and the safety on would be a safer condition, as on most pistols it would either prevent cocking the hammer, or keep the firing pin retracted so if the hammer was to be cocked it couldn't hit it.

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