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What to do with the extra bullet


Ray_Z

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During my CRO class one of the discussions concerned how to score an extra hit on target.  situation 1: A target is partially obscured by a plastic barrel. The shooter hits the barrel and the bullet goes on to hit the target. Since props are impenetrable one of the scoring hits must not be scored. Just for giggles let's say one is an A, one is a C, and one is a D. Which ones do you score as hits on target? Answer: the hit without a grease ring. When that bullet went through the barrel it lost the grease that makes the ring. Situation 2 On the attached Virginia count classifier the shooter fires an extra round on one target. Here again let's say 7A's, 1C, and 1D. Which one do you omit? Now before you answer, you have to back up your statement with the rule in the book. He already got a penalty for an extra shot and an extra hit. You certainly can't see the target, at that distance to be able to see the bullets penetrate. The shooter has already been penalized with an extra shot and an extra hit. How do you score the target?

Quiky II.jpg

Edited by Ray_Z
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27 minutes ago, wgj3 said:

6+1+1=8

No extra hits...no extra hit penalty...penalty for extra shot fired.

Agreed . If there are 8 hits on the target there can't be an extra hit penalty. Seems pretty simple with one extra shot penalty.

edited to add that hitting a barrel does not always mean penetrating a barrel. If the round just creases the barrel and loses its grease it still counts as a hit if you see visible evidence i.e. Crown etc.

Edited by Sarge
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2 minutes ago, uewpew said:

Question 1:  the hits WITH grease rings count for score

Question 2:  7A's 1C...the highest scoring hits. 

Q1- Yes we determined that the hole without a grease ring is the one that went through the barrel.

Q2- You've made a statement. Now prove it. Where is it in the book? Physical proof determined the answer to Q1. There is no physical proof to determine an answer for Q2. 

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Q1 if you can't determine the actual score, reshoot. The barrel/prop should be taped so there is only one hole to determine that the bullet passed through the prop completely. If it passes through hard cover it doesn't count as a hit

 

Q2 you would score it like any other target. Best 8 per paper like the wsb says. 9.5.1

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I think Chuck S is right. Does the last sentence here apply?

 

9.4.5.1 Extra shots (i.e. shots fired in excess of the number specified in a component string or stage), will each incur one procedural penalty. Additionally, during scoring, no more than the specified number and highest scoring hits will be awarded.

Edited by Ray_Z
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This is pretty dead at this point, but for Q2 I choose to look at it like this.

At the line, assess penalties as needed.  (1 extra shot)

At the targets, score as normal. (highest counting hits)

Also at the targets assess penalties as needed. (1 extra hit.)

They are all separate scoring events.  Also, yes 9.4.5.1 handles the actual rule to apply.

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2 hours ago, Glock26Toter said:

This is pretty dead at this point, but for Q2 I choose to look at it like this.

At the line, assess penalties as needed.  (1 extra shot)

At the targets, score as normal. (highest counting hits)

Also at the targets assess penalties as needed. (1 extra hit.)

They are all separate scoring events.  Also, yes 9.4.5.1 handles the actual rule to apply.

I agree John. Now that I have seen the rule. Our CRO instructor said that Virginia count was the hardest  COF to score. He was right.

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37 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Too easy Ray.

I'z haz seen du lit

 

Thanks guys. I know I'm not the sharpest pencil in the box. I do know where to come for answers. Dear 'ol dad used to tell me " The only dumb question is the one you didn't ask."

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  • 1 month later...

Hello,

 

I have 2 questions:

1) What if you shot a metal plate through some hard cover and the plate falls? Lets say there is prop-wall corner (made of timber) and the bullet goes through that.

2) Stage procedure tells you to shoot 1 shot on targets with strong hand, change hands and then shoot the targets with the weak hand. What if I shot all targets 2 times with strong hand (as if I were thinking that I missed the first shot) and then shoot with weak hand some fast not-well-aimed single-shots at the targets?

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

If there are extra hits on the target, many games require throwing out the highest scoring hit(s) that exceed the round count,

Without regard as to what the round(s) might have otherwise hit and passed through.

It would be mighty hard to determine if the errant round actually went through a prop first.

If it's been placed to be an obstruction, there's probably going to be lots of holes in that prop.

Can you just imagine the arguments over whether there's a grease spot?:unsure:

Just a thought.

Edited by g.willikers
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9 minutes ago, g.willikers said:

If there are extra hits on the target, many games require throwing out the highest scoring hit(s) that exceed the round count, NOT USPSA

Without regard as to what the round(s) might have otherwise hit and passed through.

It would be mighty hard to determine if the errant round actually went through a prop first. NOT REALLY, IT IS ACTUALLY PRETTY EASY TO TELL

If it's been placed to be an obstruction, there's probably going to be lots of holes in that prop.  HOLES IN HARDCOVER SHOULD BE TAPED, SO THERE IS NO QUESTION ON WHETHER OR NOT A BULLET PASSED THROUGH

Can you just imagine the arguments over whether there's a grease spot?  GREASE RING NOT SPOT, AND IF THERE IS AN ARGUMENT THE RULE BOOK DEFINES WHAT TO DO IN A SITUATUION WHEREA SHOOTER DISAGREES WITH THE RO ON A TARGET SCORE, ALTHOUGH AGAIN IT IS USUALLY PRETTY EASY TO TELL

Just a thought.

Not yelling, just did caps to easily see the answers

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Quote

HOLES IN HARDCOVER SHOULD BE TAPED, SO THERE IS NO QUESTION ON WHETHER OR NOT A BULLET PASSED THROUGH

Flexible plastic barrel, masking tape and maybe rain = no stick.

Every round passing through might blow off all the others.

Quote

IF THERE IS AN ARGUMENT THE RULE BOOK DEFINES WHAT TO DO IN A SITUATION

Settle a friendly (?) argument by pawing through the rule book in the middle of a match?

ROs generally have to make snap decisions or risk holding up the works.

Very unpopular thing to do while squads are piling up behind them.

I always considered the rule book as more of a suggestion that could be over ruled by common sense, depending on the circumstances.

The matches are supposed to be fun, not cause for altercations.

Especially with folks carrying shootin' irons.:o

 

 

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1 hour ago, g.willikers said:

Flexible plastic barrel, masking tape and maybe rain = no stick. BAG IT?

Every round passing through might blow off all the others. HAD TO GO THROUGH TO BLOW OFF PASTERS

Settle a friendly (?) argument by pawing through the rule book in the middle of a match? NOT  AN ISSUE, AND COMMON ENOUGH FOR COMPETITORS TO DISAGREE WITH AN ROs SCORING CALL

ROs generally have to make snap decisions or risk holding up the works.  ROs NEED TO MAKE CORRECT DECISIONS, NOT BE SWAYED INTO GIVING UNERANED POINTS OR PENALTIES BECAUSE THEY ARE RUSHED

Very unpopular thing to do while squads are piling up behind them.  IT IS ONLY UNPOPULAR UNTIL YOU WANT THE RO TO MAKE THE CORRECT CALL FOR YOU, THEN EVERYONE CAN WAIT:-)

I always considered the rule book as more of a suggestion that could be over ruled by common sense, depending on the circumstances.  I AM NOT BEING AN ASS, BUT THIS OUTLOOK CAUSES MORE ISSUES THAN ANY OTHER.   IT ALSO USUALLY CHANGES WHEN THE PERSON WITH THAT OUTLOOK GETS SCREWED BECAUSE AN RO LETS SOMEONE ELSE GET AWAY WITH SOMETHING AND MOVE AHEAD OF THE YOU

The matches are supposed to be fun, not cause for altercations.  IF THE RULES ARE APPLIED EQUALLY AND FAIRLY IT IS FUN AND THERE ARE GENERALLY NO ALTERCATIONS.  THE ISSUES ARISE WHEN ONE PERSON GETS AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE BECAUSE THE RULEBOOK WAS APPLIED TO THEM, BUT WE DID NOT WANT TO PAW THROUGH IT FOR SOMEONE ELSE

Especially with folks carrying shootin' irons.:o  A GREAT REASON TO FOLLOW THE RULES:-)

 

 

Once again not yelling:-)

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On 10/15/2016 at 10:09 PM, uewpew said:

Question 1:  the hits WITH grease rings count for score

Question 2:  7A's 1C...the highest scoring hits. 

 

On 10/15/2016 at 10:16 PM, Ray_Z said:

Q1- Yes we determined that the hole without a grease ring is the one that went through the barrel.

Q2- You've made a statement. Now prove it. Where is it in the book? Physical proof determined the answer to Q1. There is no physical proof to determine an answer for Q2. 

I understand the thought process can you SHOW me in the rule book where it says don't score the one without a grease ring?

Went through this at Level lll and got the 2 alphas, i.e. the highest scoring hits on paper. This happened 2 years ago, maybe something has changed

Edited by jcc7x7
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