Ray_Z Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 (edited) During my CRO class one of the discussions concerned how to score an extra hit on target. situation 1: A target is partially obscured by a plastic barrel. The shooter hits the barrel and the bullet goes on to hit the target. Since props are impenetrable one of the scoring hits must not be scored. Just for giggles let's say one is an A, one is a C, and one is a D. Which ones do you score as hits on target? Answer: the hit without a grease ring. When that bullet went through the barrel it lost the grease that makes the ring. Situation 2 On the attached Virginia count classifier the shooter fires an extra round on one target. Here again let's say 7A's, 1C, and 1D. Which one do you omit? Now before you answer, you have to back up your statement with the rule in the book. He already got a penalty for an extra shot and an extra hit. You certainly can't see the target, at that distance to be able to see the bullets penetrate. The shooter has already been penalized with an extra shot and an extra hit. How do you score the target? Edited October 16, 2016 by Ray_Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgj3 Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 6+1+1=8 No extra hits...no extra hit penalty...penalty for extra shot fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 (edited) 27 minutes ago, wgj3 said: 6+1+1=8 No extra hits...no extra hit penalty...penalty for extra shot fired. Agreed . If there are 8 hits on the target there can't be an extra hit penalty. Seems pretty simple with one extra shot penalty. edited to add that hitting a barrel does not always mean penetrating a barrel. If the round just creases the barrel and loses its grease it still counts as a hit if you see visible evidence i.e. Crown etc. Edited October 16, 2016 by Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray_Z Posted October 16, 2016 Author Share Posted October 16, 2016 OOPS I ment to put 9 rounds on paper. I'll change it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uewpew Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Question 1: the hits WITH grease rings count for score Question 2: 7A's 1C...the highest scoring hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray_Z Posted October 16, 2016 Author Share Posted October 16, 2016 2 minutes ago, uewpew said: Question 1: the hits WITH grease rings count for score Question 2: 7A's 1C...the highest scoring hits. Q1- Yes we determined that the hole without a grease ring is the one that went through the barrel. Q2- You've made a statement. Now prove it. Where is it in the book? Physical proof determined the answer to Q1. There is no physical proof to determine an answer for Q2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Q2 9 4.5.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraj Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Q1 if you can't determine the actual score, reshoot. The barrel/prop should be taped so there is only one hole to determine that the bullet passed through the prop completely. If it passes through hard cover it doesn't count as a hit Q2 you would score it like any other target. Best 8 per paper like the wsb says. 9.5.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DagoRed Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 These situations are why I use extra grease on my bullets Red Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray_Z Posted October 16, 2016 Author Share Posted October 16, 2016 (edited) I think Chuck S is right. Does the last sentence here apply? 9.4.5.1 Extra shots (i.e. shots fired in excess of the number specified in a component string or stage), will each incur one procedural penalty. Additionally, during scoring, no more than the specified number and highest scoring hits will be awarded. Edited October 16, 2016 by Ray_Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glock26Toter Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 This is pretty dead at this point, but for Q2 I choose to look at it like this. At the line, assess penalties as needed. (1 extra shot) At the targets, score as normal. (highest counting hits) Also at the targets assess penalties as needed. (1 extra hit.) They are all separate scoring events. Also, yes 9.4.5.1 handles the actual rule to apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 Too easy Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray_Z Posted October 17, 2016 Author Share Posted October 17, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Glock26Toter said: Edited October 17, 2016 by Ray_Z Double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray_Z Posted October 17, 2016 Author Share Posted October 17, 2016 2 hours ago, Glock26Toter said: This is pretty dead at this point, but for Q2 I choose to look at it like this. At the line, assess penalties as needed. (1 extra shot) At the targets, score as normal. (highest counting hits) Also at the targets assess penalties as needed. (1 extra hit.) They are all separate scoring events. Also, yes 9.4.5.1 handles the actual rule to apply. I agree John. Now that I have seen the rule. Our CRO instructor said that Virginia count was the hardest COF to score. He was right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray_Z Posted October 17, 2016 Author Share Posted October 17, 2016 37 minutes ago, Sarge said: Too easy Ray. I'z haz seen du lit Thanks guys. I know I'm not the sharpest pencil in the box. I do know where to come for answers. Dear 'ol dad used to tell me " The only dumb question is the one you didn't ask." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasjok Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 Hello, I have 2 questions: 1) What if you shot a metal plate through some hard cover and the plate falls? Lets say there is prop-wall corner (made of timber) and the bullet goes through that. 2) Stage procedure tells you to shoot 1 shot on targets with strong hand, change hands and then shoot the targets with the weak hand. What if I shot all targets 2 times with strong hand (as if I were thinking that I missed the first shot) and then shoot with weak hand some fast not-well-aimed single-shots at the targets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGBSTI Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 #1 Walls and all hard cover is impenetrable so it would be a reshoot 9.1.5.2 #2 Is not a legal stage you cant go directly from strong hand to weak hand without freestyle between 1.1.5.5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g.willikers Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 (edited) If there are extra hits on the target, many games require throwing out the highest scoring hit(s) that exceed the round count, Without regard as to what the round(s) might have otherwise hit and passed through. It would be mighty hard to determine if the errant round actually went through a prop first. If it's been placed to be an obstruction, there's probably going to be lots of holes in that prop. Can you just imagine the arguments over whether there's a grease spot? Just a thought. Edited December 10, 2016 by g.willikers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 9 minutes ago, g.willikers said: If there are extra hits on the target, many games require throwing out the highest scoring hit(s) that exceed the round count, NOT USPSA Without regard as to what the round(s) might have otherwise hit and passed through. It would be mighty hard to determine if the errant round actually went through a prop first. NOT REALLY, IT IS ACTUALLY PRETTY EASY TO TELL If it's been placed to be an obstruction, there's probably going to be lots of holes in that prop. HOLES IN HARDCOVER SHOULD BE TAPED, SO THERE IS NO QUESTION ON WHETHER OR NOT A BULLET PASSED THROUGH Can you just imagine the arguments over whether there's a grease spot? GREASE RING NOT SPOT, AND IF THERE IS AN ARGUMENT THE RULE BOOK DEFINES WHAT TO DO IN A SITUATUION WHEREA SHOOTER DISAGREES WITH THE RO ON A TARGET SCORE, ALTHOUGH AGAIN IT IS USUALLY PRETTY EASY TO TELL Just a thought. Not yelling, just did caps to easily see the answers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g.willikers Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 Quote HOLES IN HARDCOVER SHOULD BE TAPED, SO THERE IS NO QUESTION ON WHETHER OR NOT A BULLET PASSED THROUGH Flexible plastic barrel, masking tape and maybe rain = no stick. Every round passing through might blow off all the others. Quote IF THERE IS AN ARGUMENT THE RULE BOOK DEFINES WHAT TO DO IN A SITUATION Settle a friendly (?) argument by pawing through the rule book in the middle of a match? ROs generally have to make snap decisions or risk holding up the works. Very unpopular thing to do while squads are piling up behind them. I always considered the rule book as more of a suggestion that could be over ruled by common sense, depending on the circumstances. The matches are supposed to be fun, not cause for altercations. Especially with folks carrying shootin' irons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 1 hour ago, g.willikers said: Flexible plastic barrel, masking tape and maybe rain = no stick. BAG IT? Every round passing through might blow off all the others. HAD TO GO THROUGH TO BLOW OFF PASTERS Settle a friendly (?) argument by pawing through the rule book in the middle of a match? NOT AN ISSUE, AND COMMON ENOUGH FOR COMPETITORS TO DISAGREE WITH AN ROs SCORING CALL ROs generally have to make snap decisions or risk holding up the works. ROs NEED TO MAKE CORRECT DECISIONS, NOT BE SWAYED INTO GIVING UNERANED POINTS OR PENALTIES BECAUSE THEY ARE RUSHED Very unpopular thing to do while squads are piling up behind them. IT IS ONLY UNPOPULAR UNTIL YOU WANT THE RO TO MAKE THE CORRECT CALL FOR YOU, THEN EVERYONE CAN WAIT:-) I always considered the rule book as more of a suggestion that could be over ruled by common sense, depending on the circumstances. I AM NOT BEING AN ASS, BUT THIS OUTLOOK CAUSES MORE ISSUES THAN ANY OTHER. IT ALSO USUALLY CHANGES WHEN THE PERSON WITH THAT OUTLOOK GETS SCREWED BECAUSE AN RO LETS SOMEONE ELSE GET AWAY WITH SOMETHING AND MOVE AHEAD OF THE YOU The matches are supposed to be fun, not cause for altercations. IF THE RULES ARE APPLIED EQUALLY AND FAIRLY IT IS FUN AND THERE ARE GENERALLY NO ALTERCATIONS. THE ISSUES ARISE WHEN ONE PERSON GETS AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE BECAUSE THE RULEBOOK WAS APPLIED TO THEM, BUT WE DID NOT WANT TO PAW THROUGH IT FOR SOMEONE ELSE Especially with folks carrying shootin' irons. A GREAT REASON TO FOLLOW THE RULES:-) Once again not yelling:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcc7x7 Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 (edited) On 10/15/2016 at 10:09 PM, uewpew said: Question 1: the hits WITH grease rings count for score Question 2: 7A's 1C...the highest scoring hits. On 10/15/2016 at 10:16 PM, Ray_Z said: Q1- Yes we determined that the hole without a grease ring is the one that went through the barrel. Q2- You've made a statement. Now prove it. Where is it in the book? Physical proof determined the answer to Q1. There is no physical proof to determine an answer for Q2. I understand the thought process can you SHOW me in the rule book where it says don't score the one without a grease ring? Went through this at Level lll and got the 2 alphas, i.e. the highest scoring hits on paper. This happened 2 years ago, maybe something has changed Edited December 12, 2016 by jcc7x7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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