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Who is winning?


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No way to get a paper copy with practiscore.

Writing down the information on a piece of paper is not a copy.

Printing out what is on practiscore requires additional hardware, the more hardware you rely on, the more problems you will have.

Thermal printers, heat and rain do not go good together.

How many iPad and printers would be needed to run nationals?

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I pm him, we discuss it, I thought like rationale adults, he responds and blocks me, I say that is a punk.

Rational adults don't tell other adults that their genitalia is bigger than theirs. I blocked your PMs after you went on a 3rd cycle with the same stuff, so nothing more to discuss and you still have support email if you need help with any technical issues related to PractiScore.

No way to get a paper copy with practiscore.

Writing down the information on a piece of paper is not a copy.

Okay, I bait. If it is not a copy, what is it?

Edited by euxx
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No way to get a paper copy with practiscore.

Why do you need a paper copy? I've already addressed this earlier.

Writing down the information on a piece of paper is not a copy.

Eh? What does that even mean.

Printing out what is on practiscore requires additional hardware, the more hardware you rely on, the more problems you will have.

Why do you need to print out anything?

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When you guys run a match, do it however you want to.

USPSA said a paper copy was necessary per their rules.

Call Phil Strader, Kim Williams or the natch director if you don't like it.

I shot the match and think the paper worked great.

If you weren't there, don't complain.

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I shot the match, in fact I just pulled the 22 yellow slips of paper out of my range bag. Scoring works pretty well, I have no complaints.

Phil at the meeting said that at the multigun nationals they had a crash, and though they were able to recover the scores two scores were lost. And that they were recovered by asking the competitors and their squad mates.

He didn't like that. Which is why he went for paper scoring at the back to back nationals.

I do think that the system that Shannon used at the US IPSC Nationals is better, as it doesn't require a huge stat shack. They had the tablets which the competitor check, and they had a paper back up in case of an issue with the tablets.

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Yes, the USPSA rules are broken and antiquated, I agree fully. Also, the rules say the President can approve the use electronic scoring.

The President of USPSA did not approve electronic scoring for Nationals this year, throw him out of office.

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No way to get a paper copy with practiscore.

That is not correct. I was too cheep to do it for my little L2 match but a very easy solution is a in expensive multifunction printer, copier. Finish scoring set tablet on copier and hit print. Takes about 20 seconds with the $60 one I tried it with and I had a perfect copy of the data as entered. For anything larger than the small sectional I was running I would buy a bunch of them and be done with it.

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I shot Nationals last year and shot Limited & L10 this year. Both matches ran great. In my humble opinion, I liked last year's ipad electronic scoring better and they seem to be easier on the RO. Not having to add, and just pressing the ipads seems better than writing. Even in the hail and rain, the iPads worked great. I think it's just a matter of what the range can execute better. It seems electronic scoring use less people at the stat shack than paper scoring. I really don't know how many people were typing in the scores manually behind the scenes. From what I understand, it would have to be verified by 2 individuals. I have heard that in the Indiana sectional, the shooter must press save to verify that they agree with the scores. I think that is the way to go.

Just my 2 cents

Edited by Ryan626
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How many iPad and printers would be needed to run nationals?

Who cares how many it would take, USPSA should step up an invest in enough equipment to run the Nationals in a first class manner. I actually think they should invest in about 100 stages worth of equipment so every L2 or above could be scored on the same first class gear, why do we have a national organization if every Championship is run relying on the local clubs to have all the gear required?

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Paper Scoring does work and has worked for many years. The problem I have with it is that you have too many human layers of manual tabulation and transcription going on. There are at least two layers of human interaction associated with paper scoring. The more human interaction there is with manipulating, copying, or transcribing the data the more chance you have with clerical errors. NOBODY can dispute that fact.

For the USPSA LImited Nationals alone this required at least 6300 Score Sheets to be filled out and hits tallied by the RO's. Then another 6300 Score Sheet "touches" to manually observe and key in the written score sheet data into EzWinScore. I am not good at statistics, but I HIGHLY DOUBT that out of 12600 human score sheet interactions that there wasn't a low percentage of errors made. I shot the match and when I reviewed my score sheets verses the scores posted, I noticed 3 score sheets where the RO's tallied the target hits incorrectly but my score was correct online. This means that whoever was manually inputting the scores into EzWinScore ran into the tabulation error and had to waste even more time figuring out the tabulation issue and resolving it. The issues I had on my score sheets were not too big of an issue because the correct per target hits were accurate and there was only a tabulation error made at the bottom of the hits columns.

Using Electronic scoring like PractiScore cuts your "Human Touch" error factor in half compared to paper scoring. That is a fact that can't be ignored. Eliminating half of the human error factor is a huge improvement over paper if you ask me. The other factor that can't be disputed is the dramatically reduced time it takes to process and post results after the shooting is done. Sure the Limited Nationals had very timely match results updates, but I would consider that the exception and not the rule. I have been to plenty of "Paper Scoring" major matches where we had to wait hours or days for results to be posted. With electronic scoring you don't have that huge manual data entry log jam to contend with. You simply sync the scoring devices and then post the results.

As a MD myself hosting Local and Major matches, I am still a fan of having a backup paper summery score sheet filled out for the major matches. In the last two major matches I ran there were a few isolated instances where shooters scores were simply missing from practiscore all together for whatever reason. In all of these instances I was able to leverage the backup paper summery score sheet to input their scores and keep the match moving along with minimal drama.

I think the major push back for most when it comes down to trusting electronic scoring is the technology troubleshooting unknowns. Electronic Devices and Software does increase the probability of technical failures. This combined with there not being an "Official" Tech Support team for devices and or software in the heat of the moment does make people very leery of using it in major events. Using electronic scoring requires a certain level of technical expertise and troubleshooting skills. Personally I don't have an issue with figuring this stuff out on my own or troubleshooting stuff as needed. I fix broken electro-mechanical and computer stuff for a living so its just another day at work figuring things out as needed for me. I would much rather deal with Electronic Scoring Technical Issue here or there as they happen verses manually input scores into EzWinScore for hours. To each their own I guess.

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Could all of this be political as well? Didnt the President and Exec Dir got mad at Ken Nelson because of money or something?

In terms of using Practiscore and having to talk to Ken Nelson for his expertise.

Edited by Ryan626
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These are just some comments about this match and scoring in general. When paper scoring is used, paper backups for shooters are to check their scores against what was put into EzWin. This would be times, penalties and A B C D M s. Sometimes there is a data input-i.e., manual typing, error. This is what you are checking in the hour after the end of the match and scores are posted. In Practiscore, there really shouldn't be any data entry issues because the program won't let you put in the wrong number of hits, which is not usually a problem anyway, there is no guessing on numbers in the time because it can not be in really bad handwriting. etc. The problem is the actual devices, how that device data is copied into the main match computer, how to keep up with overall match scoring for the shooter-because that seems to be something most shooters want, and then dealing with issues that come up. Like a HF lower than when you shot it. That's why it's crucial for the shooter to get a copy right then and there-because that is the original raw data at the time and will be stamped as such. That could be blue tooth, wifi, maybe email. Some matches the RM or MD rides around with a "master" iPad or laptop and transfers that data into it. Sometimes you're given a new device and the old one is given to the stats people. Etc. Wi-fi with repeaters gets the data to the stats guys the same way it gets to the shooter. That's why we like it. However, let's not quibble about the nuts and bolts of data storage manipulation, transfer, and all that. I know my Ferrari key will not work in your Mercedes. But they both work and are awesome.euxx-there can be disputes about issues in Virginia Count stages, procedurals, actual scores out on the range like a vs c, pulled targets that can, but shouldn't stop a stage, that add time, sometimes a lot of time if there is not another device to run the next shooter. I'm not sure anyone said the problem was Practiscore per se, or if that was what was implied. It's really the electronic device method. For instance, how did they handle rain and hail at Nationals in Utah last year? This year even timers were fogging up and sometimes hard to read, because of humidity. We have all seen how hard screens can be to read in blinding sun, devices that freeze, and scores that disappear. I don't think any of us meant to imply paper was better than Practiscore. It is just at this match, because it was planned for-having sufficient personnel in stats, and goals for scoring updates to the USPSA website, that paper was a pleasure to use, and it ran really, really well. I think in the future there will be some group in the organization that will be able to devise and recommend best practices for electronic devices. For club matches and some smaller level 2 matches you aren't going to see paper around Area 6 that I know of, and probably not anywhere really. For big Area Matches this match was like a master training exercise in how to use paper with timely uploads. If that is your choice as MD. It requires a lot of people. Sometimes that is difficult to achieve. But this match was the gold standard in how to score a match quickly, give immediate and continuous feedback to the shooter and it was paper.

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euxx-there can be disputes about issues in Virginia Count stages, procedurals, actual scores out on the range like a vs c, pulled targets that can, but shouldn't stop a stage, that add time, sometimes a lot of time if there is not another device to run the next shooter.

First of all, you don't really have to keep the device around on idle when dispute is happening. Score as is, save and then call RM. If RM rules on a change - go back to the score and edit it. There will be a trace of that edit in the app. If there is a need to have shooter and/or RO to fingerstamp it (i.e. "sign") it can be supported too. So far no one really asked for anything like that.

But then again, if club and/or MD can afford it, they could get a spare device for each stage.

I'm not sure anyone said the problem was Practiscore per se, or if that was what was implied. It's really the electronic device method.

It is all started when someone stated that paper worked better than PractiScore. I asked to elaborate why and then the sky fall...

For instance, how did they handle rain and hail at Nationals in Utah last year? This year even timers were fogging up and sometimes hard to read, because of humidity.

I've shot USPSA Indiana SS/Prod/Rev Match this April under a pouring rain for the most of the day. Was bad enough that some shooters quit in the middle. But it was scored on Nooks. Basically the gear can work if match crew is willing to use it and don't mind keeping it to work.

We have all seen how hard screens can be to read in blinding sun, devices that freeze, and scores that disappear.

Those all are not new and we've seen and heard it all in many variations. Get some shade, keep devices cool, do all required due diligence to make sure nothing is lost.

For the latter, it does help to contact support@practiscore.com and give us the field report. I know of at least one major issue that was fixed in the software back in May that caused data loss in some corner case. The issue was addressed and few additional preventive measures were done in Android app. But telling people that scores are getting lost without any context or details is not exactly helping anyone.

I don't think any of us meant to imply paper was better than Practiscore. It is just at this match, because it was planned for-having sufficient personnel in stats, and goals for scoring updates to the USPSA website, that paper was a pleasure to use, and it ran really, really well...

I don't mind if MD chose to use paper for scoring. But it was said in this thread that paper was better. That is when I asked to clarify why. That is all.

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A print out from practiscore is not a copy of a scoresheet.

On a range with 21 stages plus chrono, to print from practiscore would require a printer at every stage.

Most ranges I have been at do not have power at each bay.

So 22 printers and power sources, in Florida in the rain, ever see what happens to ink jet when wet?

Nationals paper scoring from my perspective was seemless, flawless, worked great.

The logistics and expense of practiscore and printing sheets for the shooter at the stage is not something I see USPSA do.

Fire Phil Strader and get a new president if you don't like him, fire Kim Williams too.

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Could all of this be political as well? Didnt the President and Exec Dir got mad at Ken Nelson because of money or something?

In terms of using Practiscore and having to talk to Ken Nelson for his expertise.

Fire them.

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A print out from practiscore is not a copy of a scoresheet.

Eh? What does that even mean?

On a range with 21 stages plus chrono, to print from practiscore would require a printer at every stage.

Most ranges I have been at do not have power at each bay.

So 22 printers and power sources, in Florida in the rain, ever see what happens to ink jet when wet?

Frostproof range can get power to the ranges and they have pretty good sheds. 20 printers would cost somewhere under $3000 (doesn't look that big number for such match and some of the sponsors could step up) and there are plenty of other options besides inkjet.

Nationals paper scoring from my perspective was seemless, flawless, worked great.

The logistics and expense of practiscore and printing sheets for the shooter at the stage is not something I see USPSA do.

Fire Phil Strader and get a new president if you don't like him, fire Kim Williams too.

It was great, we know. Though I wonder if it would run as well if Phil or Kim were processing those paper score sheets. If they did, who knows, maybe even you would have been begging for practiscore then. :)

As for the "flawless", check CHA-LEE report about wrong totals on his scoresheets...

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