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Stock 2 failure to extract issue


vixty

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yes I had read your thread however I was not sure as to what really happened.

Can you describe your FTE a bit more? 

 

Does the brass stays in the chamber or does it stove pipe?

 

I believe that with certain ammo and certain AOL, the chambers in the tangos are so tight that get sticky under pressure. Also, chambers are very rough.

As you can see in your pictures, there are lots of tooling marks inside your chamber. Try sending a light up the barrel, buy a bore light from amazon, a reading light might work, something that has a thin light like this:

https://www.amazon.ca/Real-Avid-Magnetic-Light-Silver/dp/B004CZLD8C/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1514554735&sr=8-2-fkmr1&keywords=reading+light+bore+light

 

bring the light all the way up to the chamber's shoulder and flask the light. You will see all the defects of the chamber doing this. You will not see the defect otherwise, or at least, not as obvious.

 

My case is currently being revised by Tanfoglio Canada Rep and Italy, and they are taking a look at the pictures I have posted here. I am not sure what the resolution will be but I do think that this might be related to slightly out of spec chamber.

 

Good luck

 

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In my case brass stays in the chamber and another round tries to get in causing double -feed and very bad jam.

 

My Tanfo's chamber looks really good compared to the photos in this thread.

 

So, I really hope that it was one and last time accident (FTE).

 

We will see very soon, another competitions are coming very soon, will let You know.

Edited by reaper1
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10 hours ago, reaper1 said:

In my case brass stays in the chamber and another round tries to get in causing double -feed and very bad jam.

 

My Tanfo's chamber looks really good compared to the photos in this thread.

 

So, I really hope that it was one and last time accident (FTE).

 

We will see very soon, another competitions are coming very soon, will let You know.

 

My jam is exactly like yours.

 

 

 

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A small amount of machining marks in the chamber are not going to cause extraction issues if the extractor hook is tuned properly. If the extractor hook is worn or not cut at the correct angles and you are using a worn out extractor spring, then MAYBE those chamber marks would cause a problem. But in that situation the root cause of the problem is still based on the crappy extractor fit and function. 

 

I use to shoot EAA/Tanfo guns a a lot before switching over to the 2011 platform. The one thing that always blew my mind with EAA/Tanfo guns is how inconsistent the slides were cut for the extractor groove and spring pocket. Then there was always inconsistencies in the extractors themselves in how they where manufactured. There wasn't one Slide/Extractor configuration that I used that didn't require some amount of tuning to produce 100% reliable extraction. Some setups only needed the depth of the extractor engagement to work properly, but most also required reshaping the extractor hook itself and switching to a Wolff Extra Power extractor spring. These parts are not like Lego pieces that you simply slap together and they magically work. You have to precision tune these parts to whatever is needed due to the variances in slides and extractors.

 

After I accepted the fact that every single EAA/Tanfo gun required the extractor setup to be tuned and simply put in the effort to do it, then I never had extraction problems after that. If you don't know how to tune these parts yourself then get it to a gunsmith who does know how to TUNE it verses throwing parts at it and hoping that it will fix the problem.

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On 1/4/2018 at 12:36 PM, CHA-LEE said:

A small amount of machining marks in the chamber are not going to cause extraction issues if the extractor hook is tuned properly. If the extractor hook is worn or not cut at the correct angles and you are using a worn out extractor spring, then MAYBE those chamber marks would cause a problem. But in that situation the root cause of the problem is still based on the crappy extractor fit and function. 

 

I use to shoot EAA/Tanfo guns a a lot before switching over to the 2011 platform. The one thing that always blew my mind with EAA/Tanfo guns is how inconsistent the slides were cut for the extractor groove and spring pocket. Then there was always inconsistencies in the extractors themselves in how they where manufactured. There wasn't one Slide/Extractor configuration that I used that didn't require some amount of tuning to produce 100% reliable extraction. Some setups only needed the depth of the extractor engagement to work properly, but most also required reshaping the extractor hook itself and switching to a Wolff Extra Power extractor spring. These parts are not like Lego pieces that you simply slap together and they magically work. You have to precision tune these parts to whatever is needed due to the variances in slides and extractors.

 

After I accepted the fact that every single EAA/Tanfo gun required the extractor setup to be tuned and simply put in the effort to do it, then I never had extraction problems after that. If you don't know how to tune these parts yourself then get it to a gunsmith who does know how to TUNE it verses throwing parts at it and hoping that it will fix the problem.

 

 

Great information here.

I know how to tune the tension now, wondering if you could give us a hand explaining a little bit as to what kind of shape you refer to when 'reshaping' the extractor.

 

This seems to be a very important piece of information and you seem to have a lot of experience with the platform. I think you could potentially fix all of our problems with this.

 

Also an an update, I have herd back from Tanfoglio and they claim that the marks in the chamber will have no effect on extraction.

 

 

 

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Quick update, 

I tuned the extractor with XP springs.

 

As CHALEE explained, the spring had to be cut by 1 coil to avoid coil binding. It took me a few times to get it right as I did no want to cut too much.

I can now change/replace the extractor very quickly, it was great practice.

 

For those struggling with removing and re installing the extractor, there is a way to do this very quickly and effectively.

 

I will try to make a quick video when I do my 2nd Tango coming in the mail soon, and I will show how to... I confess I was a bit daunted by this exercise at first, but once you see how I do it, you will have no problems in incorporating extractor cleaning in your maintenance routine. It is easy and I think also needed in this platform as lots of GUNK gets behind the extractor and the firing prin/spring area (only after 500 rounds). I suspect that this could be also the cause of my issues.

 

So more testing to do on this particular unit, I did try it once and it worked flawlessly but 200 rounds is not enough testing as far as reliability, so it will be a work in progress.

 

I did find a gunsmith that would do my chamber so that is my final step after some more testing. I will have an answer in 1500 rounds and after I try my 2nd tanfo.

 

 

 

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My "tip" on assembling the extractor uses the punch used to remove the pin and a newer full roll of masking tape.

 

Align the extractor, put the punch in to hold it FROM THE BOTTOM. wiggle it so it is just a bit under the top surface. Place the slide on the tape role near the edge of the bench, with the punch hanging down. Tap the roll pin in from the top.

 

Easier to do than write!

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12 hours ago, Avenida said:

incorporating extractor cleaning in your maintenance routine. It is easy and I think also needed in this platform as lots of GUNK gets behind the extractor and the firing prin/spring area (only after 500 rounds). I suspect that this could be also the cause of my issues.

 

I shoot titegroup in both my stocks 2's, folks say that stuff is dirty. Clean the extractor area maybe once every 5000 rounds or so (in truth I do it if the mood strikes me more than by round count). There is always junk to remove but I have never seen any change by removing it. 

 

Running stock extractor & springs (mirror polished) , maybe just got lucky with my guns. 

 

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On 2018-01-11 at 8:54 AM, johnbu said:

My "tip" on assembling the extractor uses the punch used to remove the pin and a newer full roll of masking tape.

 

Align the extractor, put the punch in to hold it FROM THE BOTTOM. wiggle it so it is just a bit under the top surface. Place the slide on the tape role near the edge of the bench, with the punch hanging down. Tap the roll pin in from the top.

 

Easier to do than write!

 

my system is similar but I do not use the roll, also I punch the pin from the bottom as the travel before is locks the extractor in place is much shorter, as soon as it grabs you can remove the punch holding the extractor. I only put the slide on the bench to do the finishing touches as most of it can be done held by hand.

 

Different technique anyway! :) I think mine is better, lol.

 

 

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quick update, this seems a recurring issue with tango owners so I wanted to document the evolution of things. Maybe this would help others down the road.

 

Changing the spring and small tuning the extractor did not fix my issue.

Experienced 1 FTE in 300 rounds on Saturday's practice. I am getting really frustrated with this issue, however, I would like to see the end of it and solve it and offer a solution for those out there who are having the same issue.

 

At this point, I am going to take the pistol to a local gunsmith (500 KM away) and have the barrel reamed plus I would also like him to look the gun over to see if I missed anything.

I am also getting my 2nd pistol this week, I will compare both extractor and look for differences to see if I missed something obvious.

 

One of the shooters I shoot often with, shoots a tango stock 3 extreme. His gun had the same issue as mine does, however, his FTE were more frequent. It all went away once the chamber was looked at. I am thinking that there are some serious inconsistencies on how the chambers are done at the factory, that, and the fact that they do not use SAAMI specs, might affect those on this side of the pawn who SAAMI spec'd ammo. This is just a guess.

 

At this point, and due to the fact that my FTEs are so random in between, I am going to go on a limp and say that my issue is chamber related.

Having a 2nd pistol to shoot and compare against with will also help me sort things out with Tanfoglio Canada/Italy in case reaming the chamber FAILS.  At this point both are blaming my ammo (my ammo has always worked, in 5 years of shooting in all my guns and never had this issue before, all ammo is case gauged for dimensions -shock bottle gauge-)

 

I think I am getting to the bottom of this, seeing the gunsmith will help things and eliminate any extra factors that I could have missed.

 

Worst case scenario, after all is said and done, I will dealing with tanfoglio Canada/Italy and hope for a resolution.

 

I really like this gun! it is my favourite platform for production!

 

Also, and just for giggles, I have the opportunity to handle shadow 2  Saturday after selling mine a few months back and wow, what a difference. The ergos in the tango are perfect for me and the shadow 2 are just wrong.

Personal preference but a big one for me, or otherwise I would not spend all this time trying to fix a gun.

 

Anyway, I will keep this updated.

 

 

Edited by Avenida
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I wonder if it's possible the breech was cut for a 40 sw or is slightly over diameter? have the GS check, just for giggles.  it could be the barrel chamber too (mine are all reamed, but had no issue other than needing 1.060" oal).

 

We have a decent number of tanfos that shoot locally. None have shown this behavior. I ran 20k rounds of range picked brass reloads over the past 2 seasons wo a single fail to extract.

 

Do hope you get it straightened out.

 

 

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12 hours ago, reaper1 said:

Today yet another FTE :(
I've noticed a mark on the shell - seems like the extractor slipped off the edge

PS. It was factory ammo S&B Subsonic 9,7g

 

BandQpR.jpg

 

These pieces of brass very scratched, indicating a rough chamber. This will cause the brass to stick,

the f,act that your brass is missing a piece indicates also extractor strength.

 

i would start bu having the chamber polished.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Avenida said:

 

i would start bu having the chamber polished.

 

 

 

Never thought about it, but all my brass is lubed for easy resizing.

 

If chamber is rough I wonder if lubed brass would have any effect on ejection distance & consistency? 

 

Probably not, just speculating, it seems like if a rough chamber is the issue then ejection distance ought to be varied more than normal. 

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I had the opportunity to visit the gunsmith and he says my gun is fine.

He did advice against trimming the xp springs, the spring should feel really stiff unti it settles he says, this is normal.

The guy has been working with Tanfoglio and Eric Grauffel for a while so he knows what he is talking about, he also shoots with tanfoglio.

 

He looked at my chamber and he resized it for SAAMI so that is now good.

 

I will adjust the spring when I get back, I will try the gun then and I will report back. It should be good to go now!

 

:)

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Any news on this? Mine ran fine for awhile, but now it doing it again.  I have been running the extra power spring with a coil trimmed off, as it felt like it was binding without this. So should I run it with no trimming? I seem to keep coming back to getting my chamber reamed, but has anyone confirmed this actually fixes this problem?

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I just came back home and I loaded a round to 1.1145

The bore has a nice stretch of free bore and there is absolute 0 binding in between the round and the rifling.

I will never load a round so long as I do not need to.

 

I was also advised that reaming the chamber will not only make the gun more reliable but it will also increase the speed of your current loads and sometimes increase accuracy, it is all related to the free bore.

 

The gunsmith is very familiar with tanfoglio and he has advised reaming not as a 'you could ream it' but more like 'you have to ream it if you want the gun 100% reliable with reloads and SAAMI spec'd ammo'.

 

The ammo in Europe is made under CIP regulations and chambers into the gun slightly different.

Tanfoglio bores are very undersized, The gun smith I saw had several reamers made specifically for the tanfoglio, and each reamer had a different size. All barrels come out of the factory with different (undersized) bores, therefore, if you get a really small one, a regular reamer will not fit into the bore (the pilot will not fit).

 

Also, he advised against trimming the spring, he says it is common for the spring to be stiff. It is not coil binding, it is just that it is stronger. The gun will work fine but you will not be able to actuate the extractor with a screwdriver until the spring settles a bit. It is really strong and you want it that way.

 

Upon his advice, I just did replace the spring with one uncut, rounds chamber fine and the extractor is moving when chambering a round however, I cannot move it with a screw driver (when checking for tension).

 

I will follow his advice since he has been working on tanfoglios for many years.

 

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Extra power extractor springs are longer. Depending on how deep the spring hole is drilled into the slide it could create a coil bind situation. I have seen it first hand many times on my EAA/Tanfo guns. Some guns need a coil or two trimmed off to eliminate the coil bind scenario and others don't. If the spring has proper preload you should still be able to deflect it manually. When tuned properly the extractor hook should be able to slip over the rim of a case that is already in the chamber. This is an easy test to perform to verify that the extractor has enough outward travel to function properly.

 

Once again, these things are not Lego pieces that snap together properly no matter how you force them together. Precision fitting and tuning is needed to ensure proper function.

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2 fte tonigth.

 

Barrel has been reamed.

 

I am ready to toss this thing off a cliff.

 

My brass has the same indentation as the one posted above.

 

Last thing to change would be the extractor.

After that is done, If it fails I give up.

 

 

Edited by Avenida
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This is nightmare!

 

I came back to the original springs (hammer, recoil, fire pin), plus extra power extractor's spring is on its way :)

 

Decision, however, has been made and I'm waiting for my brand new CZ Tactical Sport Orange.

 

I don't know what happend but here in Poland best shooters switched from Tanfos to CZs and gunsmiths (I asked to fix my STOCK II) are like : "Not a f*** chance, I will not touch this s*** anymore"

 

Worst spent money ever!

 

Chamber is polished, extractor and extractor's spring are new - didn't help.

I'll see next Sunday with stock springs.

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I took 4 thousandths off the pad of the extractor and put in an uncut xtra power spring and it seems to be working. I had a few new extractors and I measured the pad dimension and the one I had in was worst case. I filed it down to the best case dimension I measured. Seems so little, but I am past dismissing the small things. The extractor travel with the full length spring is very non linear, but it works. It definitely won’t over travel much so that probably helps keep it from slipping off. 

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7 hours ago, reaper1 said:

This is nightmare!

 

I came back to the original springs (hammer, recoil, fire pin), plus extra power extractor's spring is on its way :)

 

Decision, however, has been made and I'm waiting for my brand new CZ Tactical Sport Orange.

 

I don't know what happend but here in Poland best shooters switched from Tanfos to CZs and gunsmiths (I asked to fix my STOCK II) are like : "Not a f*** chance, I will not touch this s*** anymore"

 

Worst spent money ever!

 

Chamber is polished, extractor and extractor's spring are new - didn't help.

I'll see next Sunday with stock springs.

in ours club most good shooters switched their sh2 and  tso to tanfoglio aus. version and sti dvc

all tan. in the club works 100%.       few old tan. lim.pro. that have problems   in past was fixed and  now it is only bad history. 

i don't know about Poland gunsmiths that u mention ,but every normal gunsmith   can  fix this simple gun.;)

enjoy your  new tso . i think it's  one of the best limited guns.

(probably u will discover soon that few parts on the tso  was designed  by somebody that use his head only for eating):lol:

Edited by yigal
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