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Prize table thoughts for Level II matches IOT grow competitors


JHicks8h

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So there seems to be a lot of contention on doing a blind draw vs doing a prize table based on performance. I know there are various reasons why the blind draw is conducted.

1. Ease of match staff via sorting prizes

2. A lower classified shooter has a better chance of pulling something higher priced off the prize table

3. Allows a shooter to shoot a match and not rely on a buddy or stick around for the awards ceremony.

Now comes the positives for the prize table off match performance.

1. Competitors are awarded choice of prize based on performance. (Could add to sentimental value if you won a match)

2. Competitors are more likely to pick exactly what they want.

There is the old saying that we don't shoot for prizes, however I know many of the C-B shooters that do exactly that. If they pay $100 entry fee they are hoping to gain some of that back on the prize table. Some of the matches with larger prize tables, coupled with good match management produce matches that fill up very quick. Personally I have found it harder and harder to get companies to donate. Not that they don't, but many are marketing in different ways and do not see the benefit in USPSA matches. The question boils down to what is the recipe to grow these matches with people?

Giving that it seems there is a divide on the above analysis would it be beneficial to do ask if a shooter would want to be included in a blind draw or compete for the prize table during registration. During this concept you would essentially have 2 prize tables, 1 for competitors seeking prizes on performance and 1 for those just wanting something when they show up. Has anyone ever gave this any thought? What are some other MDs thoughts on growing shooters by prize table?

I would like to also hear some feedback on how some of you other MDs are doing it and if one way is better than the other?

Do all day formats seem to be better on most level II matches or should half day formats still be afforded? How many stages/rounds warrants a half day format?

A lot of this is post talk from running a few sectionals and speaking with other MDs, so some of the ideas and thoughts above are not just for me, but us collectively. Lets here what your thoughts are.

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Personally, I like having the preference of 1 day or 2 day format. As for prizes, I shoot the match for the match quality, prizes aren't what I'm after. However, it is nice to win something nice based on performance vs. luck of the draw. (I have to rely on skill because I have NO luck LOL)

I do like the idea of two prize tables and figuring out at registration what you "the competitor" want to choose...

I'm curious, what contention were you met with and by whom?

I've shot a couple of your matches now and I couldn't imagine a complaint!

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Tim we were not met with any contention. However myself and another match director on here have been tossing around ideas and thoughts on how to grow some level II matches for the future and this is one of the topics that has come up. Does the prize table have an affect on match attendance? Does changing the process for the prize table cater to growing match attendance?

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The only input I have on this is if you are going to recognize a division, then the top shooter in that division should be awarded whether there are 5, 10, or 100 shooters in that division. Many times people won't shoot a division because they are worried about that division not filling out, and then shooting the match they paid 100-200 dollars on for fun. If someone division shops to win who cares, this is why Tacops is the only division that most people shoot in 3 gun, all other divisions get screwed at the prize table.

Other than that, from second to last, can be draw or placing, I really don't care

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i'm starting to see more Steel Challenge state championships where there is a cash prize for the division & HOA winners and random draw for everyone else. best of both worlds as the top shooters usually just sell their prizes to reclaim expenses and sponsors don't get the same effect they do when a rank and file shooter wins their prize ... everyone gets what they, including sponsors ....

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What would happen to shooter participation if prize tables were eliminated all together and match fees were cut in half?

Where I am in this game I won't be in contention for any good prizes if it is order of finish, so therefore, random suits me best. If I were in contention to win I would obviously want order of finish.

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That is a very good question? I know my local club is pushing around 90 competitors per weekend, however would they still come out if you labeled it a level 2 match. I can tell you less than half that number shot a local level 2 match recently. Additionally there is a point you cannot reduce the match fee and you will not be able to cover prizes. Theoretically the prize table should not come out of entries at all. Entries should cover most the logistic pieces and club fees. In the last 2 majors I have ran there is not much left behind to throw on the prize table and from talking with other MDs that is typical. However if you were able to double attendance the $$$ would be a wash, but it would be a bit risky the first year as the MD if those numbers weren't met you fell short on covering the logistics pieces.

Something to definitely think about so thanks for your input.

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so what's the difference between a level II and a local?

1. higher entry fee

2. chance to shoot more "challenging" stages

3. prize table

why are people willing to do #1? because of #2 & #3 .... but at a lot of places the local matches have stages that rival the level IIs but what you never have is a prize table.

Even though a lot of shooters don't want to publicly admit that they're in it for the prize table, when you talk to them one-on-one you find out that the prize table does figure heavily into their decision. Throw in a random draw table & it gets even better because now they know they could win a gun even though they would never have a chance by order of finish. Sponsor happiness is important as well. My small company only sponsors 2 events a year, but how prizes are distributed is important to me.

As I mentioned earlier, cash prize to the top shooter since that's what means the most to them & random draw for the rest ... everyone wins ...

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Nimitz - thanks for the input. Most of your comments are what is driving this so we do appreciate your input to factor into planning. I am thinking advertisements of actual prizes available not just who is sponsoring the match could definately drive more people. # of guns seems to be enticing as well.

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This is actually very simple: Trophies by order of finish, prizes by random draw.

This makes sense from many angles.

Sponsors:

Sponsors are giving you product to build brand awareness. A random draw competitor is significantly more likely to keep the item they win vs a order of finish competitor. Keeping the item means they have more likelihood of talking about the item to their friends thus giving you the brand awareness you were seeking. A order of finish competitor is more likely to sell the item they win. Neither they, or the person that purchases the item from them have any incentive to talk about the origin of the item thus losing the brand awareness growth the sponsor is looking for.

Competitors:

The vast majority of USPSA shooters are unlikely to win a major match. Thus, in a order of finish table they are unlikely to ever win anything of much value. This diminishes the value of the prize table as a competitor draw - the can koozie I win for finishing 147th place doesn't do much for me. However, random draw means I have just as much chance of winning a gun as Max Michel does. That is much more interesting and a bigger prize table actually has meaning now.

Match management:

Set up for a random draw is simple. Coordination of multiple prize tables for the top winners of each division is difficult. Choose the easier path and reserve the effort for other things that may not get done otherwise.

I can't buy a legit 1st place trophy. That is the meaningful part. I can buy the prize table guns (clearly) - they don't have the prestige that the trophy does. Why link the two?

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What would happen to shooter participation if prize tables were eliminated all together and match fees were cut in half?

Where I am in this game I won't be in contention for any good prizes if it is order of finish, so therefore, random suits me best. If I were in contention to win I would obviously want order of finish.

You still have to practically beg shooters to sign up for the match. At least that's been my experience with the SC State steel challenge match. I think the best legit steel challenge match on the east coast is the PA State match. I should be shooting that match today but had to pull out this week when I cracked a tooth :(.

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What's your tooth have to do with your trigger finger? :)

I like the idea of trophies/plaques for the winners of the overall or divisions. Memorable and something no one else will get. Random draw for the rest of the competitors is nice since that is a draw to some.

I'm a little conflicted on the idea of using match fees for prizes. If you are doing random prizes and everyone has the chance to win something nicer, which was purchased because of their increased fee, then maybe it's ok. To raise fees on everyone, purchase some more guns, then do the prize table based on overall finish screws those people that have no chance of winning. Not ok with that. Will have to think more about the two different prize tables idea. Sort of like the idea of a Pro entry vs. Amateur entry and two different price structures or prize tables.

One idea I sort of liked was doing the random dispersal of prizes at registration. That gives everyone the chance to swap and sell during the match so they can more likely get something they want. Also significantly cuts down on the amount of time everyone has to wait around after the match. Hand out class and division awards and send people on their way. Random at the beginning or end, does it make a difference?

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SC Sectional hands out checks for order of finish and random draw for donated or purchased stuff. Great way to go if you can afford to pay back most of the entry fee instead of the club getting a windfall off of the volunteer's work. Keeps the shooters happy and as you pointed out you can trade for something else while still at the match.

My two cents.

Paul Beck

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I think obviously trophies/medals for order for finish including grade positions 1/2/3 in each grade that has at least 3 shooters.

Prize table is random draw, but anyone who wins their grade gets an additional turn at the prize table. so assuming you had the required 3 shooters in every grade that's still only 6 extra prize table visits per division.

so if you have to reduce the number of people who win something at the prize table by random draw then do so.

I think that ensures the newer shooters and guys who aren't competitive for whatever reason still get a look in at the nice prizes but those who won their grade also get a reward for having performed.

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What's your tooth have to do with your trigger finger? :)

Kind of hard to shoot when you have your hand on your jaw due to the pain :). I hate that I missed the match. It sound like it was a great one and they're bumping it up to Level III next year.

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I'd disagree that many USPSA shooters are there for the prize table, I can count on one hand the amount of people who have ever told me that they seriously consider or are motivated by a prize table in a couple of states that I've lived, and I have a hard time believing the rest of the U.S. is that different. (Now I have talked to a ton of 3-Gun shooters who don't do much pistol because there is virtually no prize table in USPSA when compared to 3-Gun. That however is a different animal.)

The last Level 2 that I shot (2 weekends ago) I suspect that there were less than 1/4 of the total competitors who hung around for the prize table. That could have also happened because the match gave out a proxy to have someone pick out your prize when you were called. The bottom line is that most prizes aren't enough to motivate shooters to stick around, or to shoot a match. People who are in line, or competing for some kind of win are generally interested in sticking around, and I can't blame them, they stand the chance of some of the best prizes. For me at the last level 2, I got some powder and primers, nice, but not something to me that was motivation to shoot a match. The last Level 3 that I shot had the random draw, and I got a really nice gift certificate for a company that doesn't return phone calls, or e-mails, so the prize wasn't quite worth the paper it was printed on.....

3-Gun is a different animal, I think that's where people make decisions based in part on how prize tables stack up. I'm not saying it's the only reason, but if you have money for 1 match fee, it'll play into the consideration, at least at some level. I spectated at the nearby 3Gun Nation regional this past spring, and I was told it was a "weak" prize table, yet someone finishing 44th overall was winning a certificate for a gun. Maybe not a high dollar gun, but a $300-$400 prize for 44th overall I thought was pretty great. I saw people finish in the mid 100's get Xtreme Bullet certificates for at least $100. That's just not something that most level 2 USPSA matches can compete with.

I think you need to look at some of the motivations are for people to not go....is it cost? Distance? Time invested? Are the bulk of shooters not invested in the sport to commit more? When I lived in IL, I saw a ton of the Northern Illinois folks got out to shoot the WIIT, but I did not see the same amount of people willing to drive a few hours to shoot the WI Sectional or the IL Sectional. (Mind you, I'm not talking about the people who were highly invested, I'm talking about many of the casual shooters who came out just to enjoy an evening out, or a weekend day with friends, and that's not an insignificant amount of people.) To me, even if you had a great prize table, I'm not sure you could entice some of the casual shooters by a random draw prize table.

The other downside to the random draw prize table, is that maybe some higher level shooters choose not to shoot because it limits what they can win. For me, I love seeing "heat" at a match, it's fun to watch 'em shoot, and it's always fun to measure your own performance against top level shooters.

So what am I really saying? Build a great a match. Great stages will always have people wanting to shoot it, it attracts top level shooters, and it builds a reputation among the shooting community as being a can't miss match. If you really want to excite people, talk to other local MD's and get them to run a stage or two of yours, so shooters get excited about a whole match of stages like that..

Edited by sundevil827
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PA Steel Challenge State Championship

327 entries

2nd largest match in the US ... only the US Steel Natioanls were bigger (by about 10-12 entries)

$38,000 random draw prize table

There is a hint in there somewhere ...... :)

Edited by Nimitz
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  • 2 weeks later...

The growing problem with all of shooting sports and it is going to get worse, is that the sponsors only have X number of dollars to throw for matches every year (in terms of prizes). The number of matches is growing, the participation for the most part is growing. They are going to send their $$$ to where they feel they will get the most coverage/ attention.

The whole firearms industry doesn't have nearly the cash that they had in 2012 & 2013 when the maddness was going on. Therefore they are going to be more selective about where they send sponsorships. MDs are going to have to get more creative when it comes to getting sponsors or building prize tables. Perhaps the big guys can't give you as much as they did the past 3-4 years, what about you local business (LGS) and such. Or look at using match fees to buy more prizes for the tables. At non-profit or not-for profit club should be giving this more consideration especially (cover your expenses, get the club some publicity, use some of the money for range improvements, use the rest for prizes). For profit ranges/clubs, that will be harder to do, they'll want more of the pie and I don't blame them, so use what you can to buy more prizes.

In terms of place draw vs random draw. I would say give cash prizes to the top finishers for a division (1,2,3) and random draw the rest of the prize table. I'd be more apt to come out and shoot for a cash prize if I were a top level competitor, and at my current level, if I have a chance to pull a good prize off the table, sweet. Another way you could do prize table stuff is give everybody a ticket and they drop their ticket into a bucket for the prize they want to win. Sure you have a better chance to win the 10/22 because more people want to win the (___fil in blank with high dollar item), but you can select what basket you want your egg to be in.

Like I said, the amount of $$$ that can be given out is getting thinner, we are going to have to start using more match fees to build the prize tables and get smarter about how to get the attention of the shooters to make them want to come to your match.

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  • 1 month later...

Nationals had a prize table but it was hard to know what was on it until your time to pick.

I used to shoot a lot of spearfishing tournaments, the prizes would be out for everyone to see, it was usually $75 to enter, even a guy placing 50 places down had a good chance at getting a prize worth several hundred dollars.

The matches I have been to the prize table is almost a secret, it should be well publicized, the Factory gun match has a great prize table a random drawing and they use it to promote the match, it sold out and they added some slots.

That is effective use of the prize table and getting the sponsors name out.

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Guess it depends on what your objectives are. High quality stages are almost always appreciated by shooters.

If you do order of finish prizes you will attract more top shooters, "what can I fit on my busy calendar that's a possible return on investment".

If you reward class winners you encourage people to work harder and improve, but also attract sandbaggers.

If you do random draw you'll be more appealing to average, "I know I'll never win" shooters.

"Trophy only" gets back to the all about the shooting experience.

For many folks I think it's about the geography, "I'm shooting my Section Champs no matter what the prize structure."

FWIW the 3-gun Pro-Am at Rockcastle started out with if you shoot Pro match you compete for an order of finish prize table. If you shoot Amateur match, you go to random draw prize table. Shooter's choice and preference. They historically fill up the match very fast.

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I'd say, that at least in this part of the country, the prize table does influence registration. The MS Classic and Gator sell out in a day and have epic prize tables. Meanwhile, I could have registered to shoot the TN Sectional in Memphis the week before the match. All the guys I asked locally about why they weren't shooting TN, pretty much unanimous answer was the prize table, or lack there of. I shot none of the 3, so I can't comment on the quality of the matches themselves, but I do know that the TN Sectional is held at a top notch facility.

Edited by tha1000
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They both have their merits. On an order of finish, if you just have a couple large prizes ie guns for division champ it really serves no benefit to the match as far as attracting shooters. The VAST majority of the people wouldnt even consider it when looking at the match because there is no chance and most of the matches can be pretty well called who is gonna win it within a person or 2 just off the registration list. If there are stuff to reward the classes as well then thats a different ball game.

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First , I only shoot 1-2 USPSA Multi-gun matches each year, a few USPSA indoor pistol in the winter for practice. about 20 out-law 3 gun matches.

I maybe shoot 2 random draw matches per year

It will have to be a SPECTACULAR random draw match , (or next door) before I'd consider signing up.

That being said I don't shoot for the prize, usually pick something way down the line, that's unique. I already have everything I want.

I despize the "everybodies a winner" crap that many competitions seem to be gravitating toward.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I shot four out-of-state USPSA majors this year, and the prize tables were all random draw. It was a bit surprsing that they were all that way, as my only reference up to this season has been the prize tables at a few practical carbine and shotgun matches where the prize table walk-through was in order of finish.

Random draw seems stupid to me, like a really cheap way to draw shooters. It's lazy, and it's a lottery.

I just want the stages to be awesome. "Winning" random draw prizes.... isn't that for kindergarteners?

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I feel the same way about gun raffles. Don't choose a random number! What are we kindergartners? :) The first person to buy a raffle ticket should get the gun - order of purchase.

Of course, then no one other than the first person would buy a ticket and the gun raffle would lose money and gun raffles would probably stop altogether... that may not work.

Trophies have meaning associated with order of finish - prizes do not. No reason to conflate the two.

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