2015 USPSA LTD/Open Nationals lack of updates...... WTF?

[Ryan626]

Thanks for the feedback. 2014 was my first Nationals and man, those stage designs were awesome. The staff was awesome. I was squadded with some foreign shooters used to IPSC and they said the stages are completely the opposite of IPSC. This is exactly what USPSA Nationals should be in terms of design. The guy in the other post here basically said that the stage design is 2/3 from IPSC Nats . They probably just added a few more targets but if that is true, that is what I would disagree in. The stages in St. George is what I am familiar in since most of the clubs I shoot in does similar stages. I am assuming a lot would feel the same. We don't shoot a lot of 1 handed 35 yds strong hand only types of matches in the North East. Area 8 & Area 7. These stages albeit on paper only, feels like IPSC and not USPSA style stages. That's my gripe with what I see on paper. I hope I'm wrong but it seems with the lack of communications, the late posting of stages, etc...., it seems this match is not treated as the biggest match in USPSA. For a guy like me with 2 young kids, not only the money, I'm sacrificing time for the love of the sport to a match that seems to be not well organized.

[BritinUSA]

This is why I think that Nationals should be redesigned from the ground up. I think it should be managed like any other Project in a large company. The problem with too many chiefs is one that I have seen first-hand; There should be one chief, the Project Manager and that PM should be the President of USPSA as it's his responsibility to organize the Nationals.

The PM appoints the staff to work on the project; The Match Director, Range Master and the other staff to organize sponsorships, trophies, hotels, ammo shipment etc.. The whole match is just one big project plan with dependencies, dates and task owners. Every Nationals would be run the same way, all information, squadding, registration, hotels, ammo shipment, dates etc. would be in a single location (USPSA.org).

The way that Nationals has been run over the past few years is that an MD is appointed and that poor schmuck then has to do everything, they have to learn 'on the job' if this is their first Nationals. After a couple of years the match moves again and then another new guy has to learn on the job. If many of the tasks are handled by USPSA HQ then they become subject matter experts (SME's) on their respective tasks and those tasks can be documented as they are in most cases repeatable from one Nationals to the next.

In my opinion the MD should be responsible for Stage Design and Construction (in partnership with NROI to check stage validity), and thats the sum total of what the MD should be doing. I think everything else can and should be handled by USPSA HQ staff.

Nationals has become a sad case of 'wheel re-inventing' every single year and the event is suffering because of it. Its time to hit the big RESET button on the whole thing.

[PPGMD]

You do realize that Frank, Shannon, Manny, and the crew at USA probably run more major matches a year than any other club in USPSA?

And it is widely considered that the recent IPSC World Shoot in the US was one of the best run in recent memory

[BritinUSA]

They are not running this match, Phil Strader is the MD

I am fully aware of how well the IPSC WS was run, I was there.

[CHA-LEE]

From a match product success/fail perspective USPSA should already know that they are producing a substandard product from the simple fact that the match is still not filled to capacity. When we have many other major matches across the country selling out within minutes of opening registration and the Nationals can't even fill to capacity that speaks volumes to consumer expectation in the match product offered.

Consumers usually show their displeasure with a product by voting with their $$$/feet and not voicing anything. You can only rely on "Its the Nationals" as a marketing tool for so long. There needs to be a successful product offering behind the marketing hype to make it last in the long run.

I hate to say it, but if I was faced with choosing between attending the USPSA Nationals or any Area match I would pick an Area match no questions asked. I usually attend 10 - 15 major matches a year all on my own dime. There are a bunch of Level 2 & 3 matches that are run so well that it puts the Nationals to shame. If a small crew of dedicated volunteers can pull together a major match and knock it out of the park then USPSA should be able to do even better with the resources at their disposal.

[Ryan626]

If these stages were shown to the public about a month ago, I would have probably skipped this year's Nats. I am aware USA produces great matches. I have attended 3 Fl Open and IPSC Nats(2013). I hate IPSC rules where there must be 3 small stages for 1 big stage or something like that. Having a lot of stages where I didn't have to reload once is not appealing for me. I never came back to shoot IPSC Nats after that! I didn't expect they would turn USPSA Nats stages this way. Since it's gonna be there next year, if these stages are not posted early, I am not attending. I would rather fly to other area matches that I haven't shot before than come back. I know no one will care about one man's opinion but I have voiced my concerns to Phil via email.

Just my 2 cents.

[BritinUSA]

From a match product success/fail perspective USPSA should already know that they are producing a substandard product from the simple fact that the match is still not filled to capacity. When we have many other major matches across the country selling out within minutes of opening registration and the Nationals can't even fill to capacity that speaks volumes to consumer expectation in the match product offered.

In this case location may have something to do with it, the vast majority of people will have to fly in to the match. If the match was more centrally located (surrounded by other states) then more people would be able to drive there.

This is the first back to back Nationals that I won't be covering since 2009, I just cannot justify spending that amount of money (especially when I don't get to shoot either).

[a matt]

I know Smitty can make the Nationals worth our money and time. I just wonder with the IPSC Nationals just finished up and the Monster Match coming right after the Nationals, if one of these 2 that are left will suffer? I hope it turns out to be a great time, I would hope and expect the Nats live up to the prior year or be better. We should all be trying to improve each year or we are really backing up. IMO

I am not saying the stages are going to be the same they will be different enough. That's my point about these 3 big matches so close together @ Universal.

Edited September 23, 2015 by a matt

[CHA-LEE]

The expensive/remote location of the USA facility argument having a negative impact to attendance does not hold water when they can sell out the other major matches that are hosted there such as the Florida Open, Area matches and what not.

I am by no means putting down the range facility. The Universal Shooting Academy is a top notch facility and when the matches are run by the USA people they are awesome. This is the exact reason why I make it a point to attend the Florida Open every year. That match is run well, great stages, and zero issues that I have ever observed. Thus why I deem it a viable investment for my limited shooting budget.

The problem is when USPSA takes over for the nationals and makes a monkey show of the event.

[a matt]

If these stages were shown to the public about a month ago, I would have probably skipped this year's Nats. I am aware USA produces great matches. I have attended 3 Fl Open and IPSC Nats(2013). I hate IPSC rules where there must be 3 small stages for 1 big stage or something like that. Having a lot of stages where I didn't have to reload once is not appealing for me. I never came back to shoot IPSC Nats after that! I didn't expect they would turn USPSA Nats stages this way. Since it's gonna be there next year, if these stages are not posted early, I am not attending. I would rather fly to other area matches that I haven't shot before than come back. I know no one will care about one man's opinion but I have voiced my concerns to Phil via email.

Just my 2 cents.

Do you care to share his comments about your concerns?? Thanks

[Ryan626]

If these stages were shown to the public about a month ago, I would have probably skipped this year's Nats. I am aware USA produces great matches. I have attended 3 Fl Open and IPSC Nats(2013). I hate IPSC rules where there must be 3 small stages for 1 big stage or something like that. Having a lot of stages where I didn't have to reload once is not appealing for me. I never came back to shoot IPSC Nats after that! I didn't expect they would turn USPSA Nats stages this way. Since it's gonna be there next year, if these stages are not posted early, I am not attending. I would rather fly to other area matches that I haven't shot before than come back. I know no one will care about one man's opinion but I have voiced my concerns to Phil via email.

Just my 2 cents.

Do you care to share his comments about your concerns?? Thanks

Sure if he responds to me. I kind of doubt it though but I'll share if I get a response.

[CHA-LEE]

I am also not very concerned with them reusing the same basic stage design layout (Walls, shooting area, props, etc) for multiple matches. Changing the location of targets within the stage along with changing the starting position can dramatically change the overall shooting challenge or navigation requirements of the stage. Just because the walls and shooting area fault lines may physically be the same as the IPSC nationals stages does not make them the exact same stages. Think about it this way, look at the few ranges that have a dedicated shoot house built on one of their berms. The same basic structure of the shoot house never changes but the placement of the targets and starting positions change. Do you consider these shoot house stages all the "SAME STAGE" every time you attend a new match there? Of course not because the shooting and movement challenge is vastly different every time its used.

From a perspective of a dedicated facility hosting multiple major matches within only a few weeks of one another it makes practical business and logistical sense to reuse as much of the basic stage designs as possible. USA is a private shooting facility that is dedicated to training and hosting of matches. They don't have to contend with outside range membership use of the berms in the time between major matches so why would they go through the effort to tear down all of the stages just so they can build them back up?

[a matt]

I think Smitty can pull it off. See you in Fl Charlie.

[PPGMD]

If these stages were shown to the public about a month ago, I would have probably skipped this year's Nats. I am aware USA produces great matches. I have attended 3 Fl Open and IPSC Nats(2013). I hate IPSC rules where there must be 3 small stages for 1 big stage or something like that. Having a lot of stages where I didn't have to reload once is not appealing for me. I never came back to shoot IPSC Nats after that! I didn't expect they would turn USPSA Nats stages this way. Since it's gonna be there next year, if these stages are not posted early, I am not attending. I would rather fly to other area matches that I haven't shot before than come back. I know no one will care about one man's opinion but I have voiced my concerns to Phil via email.

Just my 2 cents.

That is your opinion, I like short courses as you can do much harder technical shots and make them count on short courses.

Personally I like matches that challenge me as a shooter, not just see how fast I can blow ammo down range.

From a match product success/fail perspective USPSA should already know that they are producing a substandard product from the simple fact that the match is still not filled to capacity. When we have many other major matches across the country selling out within minutes of opening registration and the Nationals can't even fill to capacity that speaks volumes to consumer expectation in the match product offered.

In this case location may have something to do with it, the vast majority of people will have to fly in to the match. If the match was more centrally located (surrounded by other states) then more people would be able to drive there.

This is the first back to back Nationals that I won't be covering since 2009, I just cannot justify spending that amount of money (especially when I don't get to shoot either).

Area 6 is one of the busiest USPSA areas. So there are plenty of shooters within driving distance.

OTOH this isn't a weekend match, which IMO likely hurts attendance.

I know Smitty can make the Nationals worth our money and time. I just wonder with the IPSC Nationals just finished up and the Monster Match coming right after the Nationals, if one of these 2 that are left will suffer? I hope it turns out to be a great time, I would hope and expect the Nats live up to the prior year or be better. We should all be trying to improve each year or we are really backing up. IMO anyway...

The Monster Match is almost always includes at least 3 or more IPSC Nationals stages that were redressed by adding more targets and a Halloween theme.

This year it will probably be from the the USPSA Nationals.

[Ryan626]

I agree with everything you're saying Charlie but to me, this is Limited & Open Nats. On paper, it just doesn't seem the stages are anything special. 2 or 3 stages with Virginia counts and 6 stages with 12 rds or less, it just doesn't feel that much effort or thought was put in this stage planning. These looks like fillers.

I agree that some of the short stages are technical but couldn't you have added 1 or 2 targets on those short stages so that you can get 18 rds (for Limited or 28 rds for Open) and if you f*#k up, would have to reload. That would be a test of your skills too wouldn't it?

I hope it looks better on the ground. Forget about the money, it's the time that I gave up to attend the match. I trully hope Phil Strader has put a lot of effort on this just as I have sacrificed a lot of my time due to support the Nationals and for my love of the sport.

[PPGMD]

I agree that some of the short stages are technical but couldn't you have added 1 or 2 targets on those short stages so that you can get 18 rds (for Limited or 28 rds for Open) and if you f*#k up, would have to reload. That would be a test of your skills too wouldn't it?

Because then it wouldn't be a short course, it would require at least 2 more shooting positions.

[Ryan626]

I agree that some of the short stages are technical but couldn't you have added 1 or 2 targets on those short stages so that you can get 18 rds (for Limited or 28 rds for Open) and if you f*#k up, would have to reload. That would be a test of your skills too wouldn't it?

Because then it wouldn't be a short course, it would require at least 2 more shooting positions.

Yes but this is Nats. Why do we need short courses? Im not saying add another position but just add a target or too somewhere in the same position.

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Edited September 23, 2015 by Ryan626

[PPGMD]

I agree that some of the short stages are technical but couldn't you have added 1 or 2 targets on those short stages so that you can get 18 rds (for Limited or 28 rds for Open) and if you f*#k up, would have to reload. That would be a test of your skills too wouldn't it?

Because then it wouldn't be a short course, it would require at least 2 more shooting positions.

Yes but this is Nats. Why do we need short courses? Im not saying add another position but just add a target or too somewhere in the same position.

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Because they are fun and challenging.

And the Nationals should showcase good short, medium, new classifiers, and standards courses, not just be 30 field courses.

Edited September 23, 2015 by PPGMD

[Ryan626]

I guess its a preference thing. For $295, I want to shoot a lot! Shoot till my hands hurt!

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[ROY NEAL]

Cha-Lee...........nicely put. Same for Ryan626..................You guys are making the points that I brought up in the other threads.........Thank you for seeing the issue and going forward with them!! Charlie...first adult beverage of your choice is on me at the bar.

IPSC requires stand and shoots with the 3,2,1 matrix. USPSA doesn't, so why can't we embrace out differences and have more of a match like last year in Utah? Ken Nelson and his crew did a really nice job. There was plenty of challenges last year with enough mini poppers spread around that you just couldn't hose any stage as the small steel was put out far enough to make you actually have to aim. Even their medium field courses were interesting, fun and challenging.

This years just doesn't look anywhere near the fun. I really hope I am wrong and that the stages turn out to be better..........but I also hope that I wake up each morning as billionaire Bruce Wayne by day and get to drive the Tumbler as Batman by night, so we see how well that one has worked out............

[PPGMD]

I guess its a preference thing. For $295, I want to shoot a lot! Shoot till my hands hurt!

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Then you should come at the end of the month for The Monster Match.

[a matt]

Only count on what you know. Why would things be different than any other effort that has been

[BritinUSA]

IPSC requires stand and shoots with the 3,2,1 matrix.

I don't think that is accurate; Short Courses of fire may require a fixed shooting position but its not mandatory. There were a few short courses at the World Shoot that had a lot of movement in them. Below is the specific rule from the IPSC Rule Book:

1.1.5.2 Short Courses and Classifiers may include mandatory reloads and may dictate a shooting position, location and/or stance. When a mandatory reload is required, it must be completed after the competitor shoots at his first target, and before he shoots at his final target. Violations are subject to one procedural penalty.

[Givo08]

Anyone figure out what time registration will be open on Saturday yet? I emailed USPSA HQ and the response I got was that they don't know.

[The Blade]

I called HQ today and while Taylor was very pleasant she didn't have any detail about the match nor did anyone else in the building. No info on when registration is, awards ceremony or cost associated. I'm very disappointed in this whole Nationals experience. My local club matches are better organized then this.

Edited September 29, 2015 by The Blade