Dropped gun call

[molson]

Just curious as to what everyone thinks.

Situation is as follows:

NOT during or after make ready, outside of course of fire, (They are not under supervision of a match RO as they are not the competitor at the line) competitors unloaded gun is dislodged from the holster and is trapped before hitting the ground. Competitor calls RO to assist with retrieving gun. Competitor does not attempt to recover gun on their own. What is the call?

I am thinking that rule 10.5.14 should apply and this is not a match DQ:

10.5.14 Retrieving a dropped handgun:

A dropped gun must always be retrieved by a Range Officer who will ensure it is unloaded and properly secured in the competitor's holster or a suitable container. The Range Officer may, at his discretion, secure the gun himself or return it to the competitor who will secure it under supervision of the Range Officer.

Dropping an unloaded handgun or causing it to fall outside of a course of fire is not an infraction; however, a competitor who retrieves a dropped handgun will receive a match disqualification.

Specifically the second paragraph stating that a dropped gun is not an infraction unless they try to retrieve it. Just for reference, the glossary states this as the definition of a dropped gun:

Dropped Gun ...................(during the course of fire) A condition in which a competitor loses control of their handgun. Loss of control does not require the handgun to land on the ground or other range surface or prop. It occurs anytime the handgun is no longer in control of either hand, even if it is trapped against part of the body or caught in midair

So I am going with a scolding the competitor for dropping the gun, clearing the area in front of the dropped gun, pick up and clear the gun, assist in holstering the gun (all assuming I am an official RO at the match of coarse), and go back to running competitors.

No DQ for unsafe gun handling is clearly the call in my read of the rule book.

Let me have it if I am wrong. Or help support my call of rule 10.5.14 being correct and no match DQ for unsafe gun handling.

Thanks in advanced for any comments. I am just trying to make sure I get it right in the future if it should ever occur while I am at a match whether I am an RO or competitor.

Mike

[Sarge]

I never seem to be able to find these things when I need them. But I'm certain there was a ruling on this that says you can not trap a gun that is dislodged from a holster. You would essentially be handling an unholstered gun. I think you have to let it fall if it comes loose.

I saw this at recent level II match where a gun was in a gun cover on the belt and got bumped against a wall and was just hanging in the cover. The shooter insisted he should not touch it and had the RO get it reholstered.

[Sarge]

Here is a very lengthy discussion on the subject with RMI opinions"

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=113624#entry1288723

[JMike]

Common sense rules. This is my take and if I'm wrong someone who is an RO and has more street cred than an average RO (which I am), please chime in.

As far as scolding? Don't scold, you will just come across as a douche-bag.

Bottom line is *hit happens and this was outside of the course of fire.

No DQ.

Call the RO, retrieve the weapon & holster.

Move on.

[facedown]

It took a bit to find it but a ruling from a few years ago reads:

If a competitor's gun is partially dislodged from his holster while outside a COF, and the competitor "traps" the gun in the holster (trigger not exposed), he may do so without penalty. The competitor should immediately proceed to a safety area and address any necessary equipment issues. If the competitor's gun has left the holster (trigger is exposed), the gun must be treated as dropped. Even if the competitor is able to "trap" the gun before it falls to the ground, he must safely and securely lower the gun to the ground in accordance with 10.5.3.1 and call for an RO to safely retrieve it as per 10.5.14. Note that drawing and/or handling a firearm outside a safety area remain prohibited actions subject to DQ per 10.5.1

I'm not allowed to post links but it was from within a discussion of this same topic on an older thread titled "Retired and coming back to compete again". Search for "trapped gun" in the rules forum and that thread will be in the list.

[Nik Habicht]

Having just reviewed the 5 year old thread, my opinion hasn't changed. If you trap the gun against your leg using your hand -- match DQ under 10.5.1. If you trap it against a table with your leg, or with your forearm against your body, I'll ensure the safety of all others in the vicinity, retrieve the gun, confirm it's unloaded and place it back in your holster or gun bag -- no harm, no foul....

[R2B]

I agree there is clearly no foul. As molson outlined, the definition of a dropped gun is very clearly defined in the rules. "It occurs anytime the handgun is no longer in control of either hand, even if it is trapped against part of the body or caught in midair." The is exactly what happened in this case. I was there.

So we have a definition of a dropped gun. We do not have a definition of 'handling a gun'. To go into a grey area saying it's ok if its trapped against a table or trapped with your forearm but it's not ok if trapped with your hand is simply opinion and most certainly not clear enough to DQ someone from a match. A DQ'able offense should be something that can be specifically outlined with a rule.

Futhermore the rules go on to say, " Dropping an unloaded handgun or causing it to fall outside of a course of fire is not an infraction; however, a competitor who retrieves a dropped handgun will receive a match disqualification." The competitor in this case did not retrieve the gun. He called for the RO who came over and put the gun back in his holster.

This competitor was DQ'ed from a state match because the range master said, 'he didn't drop the gun, he was handling the gun so it's unsafe gun handling'. But the rule is clear on this and makes a distinction between 'dropping' the gun and 'causing it to fall'. This gun was clearly dropped by definintion of the rule book. It did not fall but in either case it is not an infraction.

Based on the outcome of this range masters all, this competitor would have been better off of quickly reholster his gun. THAT would be handling the gun and a DQ'able offense but he most likely would have gotten away with it and not have been DQ'ed. Option two would have been to let the gun fall to the ground.

The bottom line is, this was the wrong call by the range master. To DQ this competitor because he 'handled his gun' was completely unfair.

[Nik Habicht]

R2B -- here's the sticky question: Did the gun end up in his hand with the trigger accessible? If so, that's gun handling......

It's unfortunate, but it's not safe, and it's grounds for a DQ....

[Adam B]

ok, so we had a guy have a gun pop out of his holsters pasting yesterday, should he have been DQ'd?

[R2B]

Nik - I know the answer to that question but I believe that is not relevent to this scenario until we have a rule that defines what gun handling is. Handling a gun implies manipulating the gun as in reholstering it. Furthermore, the range master never asked that question. There is a very clear difference between handling a gun and trapping a gun against the body and this gun was very clearly trapped and the RO saw that. The range master did not.

Read this definition of a dropped gun again - "It occurs anytime the handgun is no longer in control of either hand, even if it is trapped against part of the body or caught in midair." By your definition catching a gun in midair would be handling the gun but the rule book clearly disputes that. This was a dropped gun by any definition you want to put on it. It was not a gun that was handled.

And it is not grounds for a DQ because the rules clearly define that even if a gun is trapped against the body it's a dropped gun and a dropped gun outside of the course of fire is not grounds for a DQ if the competitor does not retrieve the gun. The competor did exactly the right thing. The range master did not.

There is nothing in the rule book that I've seen that describes your position and I don't believe DQ'ing a competitor from any match, especially a larger match should be left to someones opinion.

Adam B - as long as the competitor did not retrieve the gun himself, absolutely not.

Edited August 16, 2015 by R2B

[Adam B]

good to know, he didn't touch it and he wasn't DQ'd so everything was handled correctly.

[GrumpyOne]

To further muddy the waters....

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=91230

This post sums it up...http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=91230&page=5#entry1492259

[Nik Habicht]

Nik - I know the answer to that question but I believe that is not relevent to this scenario until we have a rule that defines what gun handling is. Handling a gun implies manipulating the gun as in reholstering it. Furthermore, the range master never asked that question. There is a very clear difference between handling a gun and trapping a gun against the body and this gun was very clearly trapped and the RO saw that. The range master did not.

Read this definition of a dropped gun again - "It occurs anytime the handgun is no longer in control of either hand, even if it is trapped against part of the body or caught in midair." By your definition catching a gun in midair would be handling the gun but the rule book clearly disputes that. This was a dropped gun by any definition you want to put on it. It was not a gun that was handled.

And it is not grounds for a DQ because the rules clearly define that even if a gun is trapped against the body it's a dropped gun and a dropped gun outside of the course of fire is not grounds for a DQ if the competitor does not retrieve the gun. The competor did exactly the right thing. The range master did not.

There is nothing in the rule book that I've seen that describes your position and I don't believe DQ'ing a competitor from any match, especially a larger match should be left to someones opinion.

Adam B - as long as the competitor did not retrieve the gun himself, absolutely not.

Ok, I'll play -- I think you're right as far as no DQ under 10.5.14 goes:

Definition of dropped gun:

Dropped Gun ...................(during the course of fire) A condition in which a competitor loses control of their handgun. Loss of control does not require the handgun to land on the ground or other range surface or prop. It occurs anytime the handgun is no longer in control of either hand, even if it is trapped against part of the body or caught in midair.

That definition applies during the course of fire -- your situation did not occur during the course of fire, hence the dropped gun definition is irrelevant.

10.5.14:

10.5.14 Retrieving a dropped handgun:

A dropped gun must always be retrieved by a Range Officer who will ensure it is unloaded and properly secured in the competitor's holster or a suitable container. The Range Officer may, at his discretion, secure the gun himself or return it to the competitor who will secure it under supervision of the Range Officer.

Dropping an unloaded handgun or causing it to fall outside of a course of fire is not an infraction; however, a competitor who retrieves a dropped handgun will receive a match disqualification.

Dropping the gun -- not a problem. Where the gun ends up -- might be a problem, depending on what the shooter did, and where the gun ended up after starting to fall.

But I thinnk you're missing something when you suggest there's no definition of handling a gun -- the term is defined:

Handling ..........................(As in “handling a firearm”) The act of manipulating, holding, or gripping a firearm while the trigger is functionally accessible.

Hence my question -- did the competitor wind up with a hand on the gun, while the trigger was accessible? If so, Match DQ under 10.5.1:

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer.

You already mentioned that he was not under RO supervision -- so did this incident occur within a designated safety area? If not, then it sounds like the correct call was made.

[R2B]

Definition of dropped gun:

Quote

Dropped Gun ...................(during the course of fire) A condition in which a competitor loses control of their handgun. Loss of control does not require the handgun to land on the ground or other range surface or prop. It occurs anytime the handgun is no longer in control of either hand, even if it is trapped against part of the body or caught in midair.

That definition applies during the course of fire -- your situation did not occur during the course of fire, hence the dropped gun definition is irrelevant.

So your position, or that of USPSA is that the definition of a dropped gun changes if not under the course of fire? If that makes the definition irrelevant, why does the rule book go on to say

Dropping an unloaded handgun or causing it to fall outside of a course

of fire is not an infraction; however, a competitor who retrieves a

dropped handgun will receive a match disqualification.

Was his hand on the gun? No. From what I could see and I was 5 feet from him, no it was not. But again, that question was never asked. The range master simply said it was unsafe gun handling and DQ'ed him.

The fact that we can have so many varying opinions on a rule seems to me to indicate this should be more clearly defined. I've RO'ed many major matches including Nationals many times and one thing we are always told is to be absolutely certain about the circumstances before you DQ a shooter. If the range master asks you if you are sure the competitor broke the 180 and you answer, 'well, it was pretty close to the 180 I think', that is not an acceptable answer. Did this shooter handle the gun? Don't know. No one does and the question was never asked. That alone would indicate the shooter is given the benefit of the doubt. After all, the shooter is the one that called for the RO. Poor call by the range master in my opinion but I appreciate your thoughts and opinions. I believe we will agree to disagree.

Edited August 17, 2015 by R2B

[vixty]

Se let me ask you guess this. What is considered the course of fire.. Is id before the unload and show clear command? I watched a guy the other weekend miss his holster after he was done firing and was given the holster command. At that time it was deemed by the RO that the gun was clear so should he have gotten a DQ for dropping his gun? Or is course of fire from make ready to holster?

[Sarge]

Course of fire is clearly defined. Starts with make ready and ends with range is clear. If he dropped during holster that's a DQ

[Corey]

If the gun is "dropped" (meaning loss of control whether it hits the ground or not) during the COF, ie: after "Make Ready" and before "Range is clear" then its a DQ, end of story.

If the gun is dropped outside the COF: pasting, walking to your car, in the bathroom, in the stats shack, getting lunch from the food truck, etc then there is no DQ....UNLESS the shooter picks it up themselves. Then you've just handled the gun outside of the safe area or under RO direction. If any of those previous situations happen, call for an RO from the nearest stage and have them pick it up for you, no DQ.

Lets keep it simple

[eric4069]

If the gun is "dropped" (meaning loss of control whether it hits the ground or not) during the COF, ie: after "Make Ready" and before "Range is clear" then its a DQ, end of story.

If the gun is dropped outside the COF: pasting, walking to your car, in the bathroom, in the stats shack, getting lunch from the food truck, etc then there is no DQ....UNLESS the shooter picks it up themselves. Then you've just handled the gun outside of the safe area or under RO direction. If any of those previous situations happen, call for an RO from the nearest stage and have them pick it up for you, no DQ.

Lets keep it simple

I like this summary

Eric

[waktasz]

It took a bit to find it but a ruling from a few years ago reads:

If a competitor's gun is partially dislodged from his holster while outside a COF, and the competitor "traps" the gun in the holster (trigger not exposed), he may do so without penalty. The competitor should immediately proceed to a safety area and address any necessary equipment issues. If the competitor's gun has left the holster (trigger is exposed), the gun must be treated as dropped. Even if the competitor is able to "trap" the gun before it falls to the ground, he must safely and securely lower the gun to the ground in accordance with 10.5.3.1 and call for an RO to safely retrieve it as per 10.5.14. Note that drawing and/or handling a firearm outside a safety area remain prohibited actions subject to DQ per 10.5.1

I'm not allowed to post links but it was from within a discussion of this same topic on an older thread titled "Retired and coming back to compete again". Search for "trapped gun" in the rules forum and that thread will be in the list.

This is how I remember it being explained in the RO course also.

[Gary Stevens]

As I remember the discussion when this rule was adopted, trapping a gun, that is in the process of falling, outside of the COF, is not a DQ if the shooter calls for RO assistance, and does nothing further with the gun.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

I am not gonna just let my pistol eat gravel/smash cmore, nick barrel crown, when I can attempt to trap it, knowing it is unloaded. If you want to DQ me for that then so be it. We could debate which is "safer" all day long,, letting an unloaded gun hit the deck or get trapped against my thigh.

I would argue that "trapping" your pistol as it falls is a reflexive and reasonable action.

I'm not gonna DQ you for it, you DQ me.... Oh well.

[ima45dv8]

I remember this the same as Gary, so no, I wouldn't say you just DQ'd for trapping it and sliding down your leg for a gentle landing.

Once landed if you pick it up your match is done.

I didn't agree with the change but it's what we now have.

[bret]

At a match a guys gun hit the deck twice on a stage, it wasn't during his COF and he didn't pick it up himself so he didn't go to Dairy Queen.

[JAFO]

Anyone offer him a screwdriver to adjust his holster tension?

[bret]

Anyone offer him a screwdriver to adjust his holster tension?

If it was locked it should not have fallen out, the RM said after it fell out the second time, he should have left it there until it was his turn to shoot.