benos Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 A guy asked me to write a short piece on the subject for his blog... The fundamentals of marksmanship are best learned shooting groups from a bench rest, at a distance of 25 to 50 yards. In addition to ingraining the fundamentals, shooting from a bench will teach you the value of consciously placing attention. It is important to create a neutral, solid platform for the pistol. Position the bags so the bottom of the magazine is on the bench, the dustcover is on the bags, and the fingers of your support hand are firmly pressed into the bags. The resulting position should align the sights perfectly on the center of the target, without requiring any pressure from your grip. Grip the pistol with equal pressure from each hand - then forget the grip. Focus back and forth a few times from the sights to the target to the sights, confirming perfect sight alignment. Still your focus to see a razor sharp front sight. The front sight should look like a giant square building silhouetted against the sky. Become aware of the feeling in both hands, calm and still. Shift your attention to your trigger finger. Without hesitating, feel the pressure between the trigger and your finger steadily increasing until the shot fires. From when you are aware of your finger on the trigger… The shot should fire in one to two seconds. Don't try to shoot fast until you know how to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youngeyes Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 "Don't try to shoot fast until you know how to shoot.".... .Great advise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan550 Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 (edited) "Don't try to shoot fast until you know how to shoot.".... .Great advise. You did that on purpose just to piss off Sarge, didn't you! Edited March 6, 2015 by Alan550 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerTrace Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 I've searched all night for a thread where I talked about this.....but I can't find it!! Great stuff Brian Enos!! Thank you!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Sounds like an interesting blog with quality content. Care to share? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted March 6, 2015 Author Share Posted March 6, 2015 Sounds like an interesting blog with quality content. It is. I'll post the link when he gets it going, next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 I am not disagreeing, but I've always been careful to keep any part of the gun (even the mag) from touching anything but me - for fear the POI might shift. I hold the gun, and my hands/arms touch the sand bags. Yet you are recommending that both the dust cover and the mag touch something. Since I'm too lazy to experiment with it - am I incorrect in worrying about a shift in POI if the gun touches anything other than me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerTrace Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 I am not disagreeing, but I've always been careful to keep any part of the gun (even the mag) from touching anything but me - for fear the POI might shift. I hold the gun, and my hands/arms touch the sand bags. Yet you are recommending that both the dust cover and the mag touch something. Since I'm too lazy to experiment with it - am I incorrect in worrying about a shift in POI if the gun touches anything other than me? You still don't pull the trigger until the sight picture is perfect. So, the gun touching something shouldn't matter. It's not like an AR where you're resting the barrel on something and it changes POI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 (edited) Not sure you're correct, Ranger. I worry because of the effect on a rifle - I've never seen anybody worry about changing the POI with a pistol, but just wondering if contact with the mag or barrel might cause a change in POI. Guess I'll just have to try it myself (dang - that's work). I'll report back with my results, unless someone saves me by reporting back on their actual experience. Edited March 7, 2015 by Hi-Power Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 "Don't try to shoot fast until you know how to shoot.".... .Great advise. You did that on purpose just to piss off Sarge, didn't you! Hilarious! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basman Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Going to add this to my next range trip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerTrace Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Not sure you're correct, Ranger. I worry because of the effect on a rifle - I've never seen anybody worry about changing the POI with a pistol, but just wondering if contact with the mag or barrel might cause a change in POI. Guess I'll just have to try it myself (dang - that's work). I'll report back with my results, unless someone saves me by reporting back on their actual experience. I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about pistols. I definitely do think it could change POI with a rifle if it wasn't sighted in, in the exact same way. I was told it changes the harmonics or something of a rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youngeyes Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 If you bench rest the barrel of a rife on a hard surface, it can bounce on firing from the vibration of the shot. This will change POI. With a glass bedded barrel the up pressure from a rest can also change POI. When I sight in a pistol. I rest my hands on the bench while gripping the gun. I think that we've taken a bit of a thread drift here. I believe it was about learning shooting fundamentals. This is a subject in which the OP is eminently qualified. I now return you to our OP's thread already in progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 we've taken a bit of a thread drift here. I believe it was about learning shooting fundamentals. Sorry, Youngeyes, but the OP (BE) said he recommends resting the pistol mag and the pistol barrel on a surface. From what I've read re: not doing this with rifles, I am simply asking (not to be contentious) if same applies to pistols? Sounds like YOU also avoid touching your pistol on any surface also? Just looking for clarification here - if no one has tested, I'll test it on my next outing and report back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youngeyes Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 What I was trying to say (poorly) was that this is a technique to introduce a newbie to the fundamentals of shooting a pistol. Helps to be able to just isolate the idea of pulling the trigger without having to worry about keeping the pistol steady..."The resulting position should align the sights perfectly on the center of the target, without requiring any pressure from your grip.".. IMO Brian wasn't advocating a particular way to shoot the most accurately from benching. He was discussing the best way to start to learn the fundamentals of shooting. "..The fundamentals of marksmanship are best learned shooting groups from a bench rest," Just sayin" PS I look forward to you posting your results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Atlanta Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 (edited) Did a lot of bench work back in the day when I shot IHMSA (metallic silhouette) and Cast Bullet Association. I found I got my most consistent results when the butt of the gun was off the bench. This was particularly true of the heavier calibers (10" TC in 30-30). By supporting my wrists, my grip then became the main focus after sights and trigger control. Teaching a new shooter a consistent grip as a fundamental makes sense to me. YMMV. Joe Edited March 9, 2015 by Joe_Atlanta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powder Finger Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 group shooting off bags is a little different from trying to shoot a spot. with that said how are you going to shoot from prone with no bags and not resting the mag on the ground? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share Posted March 9, 2015 Resting the mag (or the base of the grip) on the bench never changed the POA for me, with any pistol or revolver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Atlanta Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 how are you going to shoot from prone with no bags and not resting the mag on the ground? Rollover prone, it's how I initially shot IHMSA, before going to Creedmoor. Now that I think about it, I'm sure part of my preference for not having the butt grounded comes from an IHMSA rule that no part of the gun can touch the ground (as well as the violence of the way a heavy recoiling pistol reacts when grounded). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerTrace Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 how are you going to shoot from prone with no bags and not resting the mag on the ground? Rollover prone, it's how I initially shot IHMSA, before going to Creedmoor. Now that I think about it, I'm sure part of my preference for not having the butt grounded comes from an IHMSA rule that no part of the gun can touch the ground (as well as the violence of the way a heavy recoiling pistol reacts when grounded). That is fine if all you are trying to do is shoot under an obstacle, but the more accurate shooting position would be to place the base pad on the ground and turn your head to align the sights..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Resting the base of the grip on the bench never changed the POI for me, with any pistol or revolver. I'm hoping to get to the range tomorrow to test this out. What about resting the barrel on any surface? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted March 10, 2015 Author Share Posted March 10, 2015 Resting the base of the grip on the bench never changed the POI for me, with any pistol or revolver. What about resting the barrel on any surface? I don't follow you there. My opening post was for shooting a semi-auto pistol from a bench rest. For that, you want the dust cover resting on the sand bags. The slide / barrel assembly should never touch anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Have you noticed any change in POI if you have the dust cover resting on anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerTrace Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 Have you noticed any change in POI if you have the dust cover resting on anything? He said no......that is what he rests on the bags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 Just got in from the range. Not too surprisingly, Brian was correct all along. I fired an eight shot group at 27 yards (+/-), with my STI TruBor and my reloads of 6.5 gr WAC/124 gr MG JHP: 1. resting my hands/arms on a solid bench/support, and then 2. resting my gun (mag and dust cover) on the support, directly. No change in the POI. I guess I shouldn't have questioned Brian's experience - but it just didn't seem right - I swore the POI would change if any part of the gun touched the bench/support. But, It DID NOT. Case closed. The only saving grace is that I tried a 52 yard (yeah, I know - these are strange ranges) ten-shot group with same TruBor/ammo - they shot about 2" high and 3/4" to the right, all in a 3" group - and eight of them grouped into a very nice, round 2" group. Not bad for a 70 year old guy, with a standard TruBor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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