.40 S&W 180gr VS 200gr

[jman93]

I'm shooting 200gr over 4.0gr TG @1.200 OAL. That gives me 172pf in my Trojan. Haven't chronographed that load in my Edge yet, but I expect about the same result.

[jman93]

I'm shooting 200gr over 4.0gr TG @1.200 OAL. That gives me 172pf in my Trojan. Haven't chronographed that load in my Edge yet, but I expect about the same result.

[BBQDawg]

I have tried and like both, but settled with the 180's. Timed myself shooting an array of targets behind my house with a shot timer, and my times were consistently a little faster with the 180's.

[grouptherapy]

I shoot 165 Powerbond hollow point. Running 1050-1090 @1.25. Love them. I shot 180 and 200 for a thousand rounds each. I settled on the 165 for major.

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[bowenbuilt]

In my experience the type of powder you use with the heavier bullets is most important. I loaded some 180's and 200's yesterday with CFE just to prove this to myself and I could not really tell the difference between the 2 loads, both exhibited roughly the same amount of recoil and muzzle flip. Switching this to e3 and RS Competition the difference is defined in both major and most defined in minor. So the statement that a heavier bullet gives less perceived recoil is not always the case even at a lower velocity. It seems to me when you get to a medium burning powder like CFE or Unique the advantage of a heavier bullet really does not show up. With a very fast powder it is there and very pronounced. With the 200 grain bullets in minor using RS Comp or e3 it is really hard to believe this load will make minor it is just stupid soft. This is by far the softest .40 load I have ever shot and it IS cheating.

[treefarmer]

I shot both 180's and 200's. loaded to major P F with WSF i could not feel any difference between the two

[johnbu]

In my experience the type of powder you use with the heavier bullets is most important. I loaded some 180's and 200's yesterday with CFE just to prove this to myself and I could not really tell the difference between the 2 loads, both exhibited roughly the same amount of recoil and muzzle flip. Switching this to e3 and RS Competition the difference is defined in both major and most defined in minor. So the statement that a heavier bullet gives less perceived recoil is not always the case even at a lower velocity. It seems to me when you get to a medium burning powder like CFE or Unique the advantage of a heavier bullet really does not show up. With a very fast powder it is there and very pronounced. With the 200 grain bullets in minor using RS Comp or e3 it is really hard to believe this load will make minor it is just stupid soft. This is by far the softest .40 load I have ever shot and it IS cheating.

Two components of recoil. One is the "equal and opposite" force where bullet weight and speed determines the recoil. The other is from the jet of hot high speed gasses from the burning powder. Fast powders give gasses that are cooling and slowing before the bullet leaves the barrel. Slow powders are still burning as the bullet leaves the barrel and are very energetic. In fact the recoil just from the gas in slow powders is as large or larger than the recoil from accelerating the bullet. Run a super fast powder major load and a slow powder major load at the same power factor and the difference is just due to the gas jet.

[superdude]

With respect to gunpowders and recoil, the best way to predict how much recoil will be produced is the charge weight. When comparing two gunpowders, the one that uses a larger charge weight for the same velocity will produce more recoil. That is explained here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil#Including_the_ejected_gas

With respect to bullet weight and recoil, when driven to the same power factor with the same gunpowder (in the same caliber/gun), a heavier bullet will produce less recoil. That's because a heavier bullet requires less gunpowder than the light bullet to reach its required lower velocity. As a result, when you do the math, the heavier bullet has less recoil force.

Empirical testing is consistent with these principles, shown here: http://38super.net/Pages/Recoil.html

[CZinZA]

Just to include a bit of scientific rigour into the discussion (because we engineers love to over-analyse everything)....

The Wikipedia article quoted by superdude is important when considering the ejected gas and its effect on recoil.

The effect of the gas on momentum is the mass of the gas multiplied by a constant (averaging 1,5) multiplied by the bullet velocity.

With a bullet weight of 200 grains and a powder / gas weight of say 5,5 grains it is easy to see that the gas contributes less than 10% of the recoil momentum.

Personally, besides the science - which says a heavier bullet will have less felt recoil - I can't tell the difference between 180s and 200s. But then I'm an idiot

Edited September 13, 2014 by CZinZA

[bowenbuilt]

Technically you are all correct and you get no argument from me about what you "should" experience between the 2 bullet weights at the same PF. When we are discussing "perceived recoil" this is where the human factor enters the technical equation and as we all know everything in shooting is personal and opinionated. When someone states that you get less recoil using a heavier bullet at the same PF there will be 100 people tell you they cannot feel the difference and another hundred that will say they can. I was merely pointing out the largest difference or a difference that is so pronounced you can actually discern it. A powder with a loud report or has a lot of muzzle blast, even though the actual recoil may be less, is perceived by the human experience to be more. The difference is easier to "perceive" using a fast, low report, low muzzle blast type of powder regardless of the Scientifics of this subject. Just to point this out so that when someone purchases the heavier bullet expecting less recoil and then thinks we were all lying to them. You won't be able to tell the difference, or at least I can't using a medium burning powder. For me it is quite pronounced using fast powder that is already known for lower perceived recoil characteristics.

Edited September 14, 2014 by bowenbuilt

[CZinZA]

Bowenbuilt I agree with you. I'm sure it's very easy for the sound and muzzle flash (and other sensory effects) to make a shooter think there is a difference between two loads - even if there is no actual recoil difference (and vice versa). People are not machines and we don't always get it right

Edited September 14, 2014 by CZinZA

[ZackJones]

With the 200 grain bullets in minor using RS Comp or e3 it is really hard to believe this load will make minor it is just stupid soft. This is by far the softest .40 load I have ever shot and it IS cheating.

Starting load for E3, please. I happen to have a box of 500 Bayou 200g bullets and I need to set my press up for .40 now that my son has moved to Georgia and we'll be shooting together more often I'll be swapping between 9mm and .40.

[bowenbuilt]

Starting for minor is 2.6 @ 1.135 looking for 680 FPS (cheating)

Starting for major is 3.6 @ 1.135 looking for 850 FPS

Edited September 14, 2014 by bowenbuilt

[ZackJones]

Starting for minor is 2.6 @ 1.135 looking for 680 FPS (cheating)

Starting for major is 3.6 @ 1.135 looking for 850 FPS

Thanks! I'll load some up and then chrono them to see what results I get from my M&P's.

[bowenbuilt]

I am sure you will need to work your way up a little. BTW have you checked out your baby picture over on Doodie?

Edited September 14, 2014 by bowenbuilt

[ZackJones]

I am sure you will need to work your way up a little. BTW have you checked out your baby picture over on Doodie?

That's why I have a chrono .

Yeah, I saw it pretty funny, IMO. Whoever picked it out did a great job. They even got the camera make correct.

[ZeroTolerance881]

I'm loading 3.9g of CSB-6 (only powder I can get locally) at an OAL of 1.150 out of my Limcat Wildcat. And get a factor of 165.5 consistently.

[hcf1976]

I run 180gr black bullets with 3.7grns of titegroup.

[2011BLDR]

Over the years in .40 S&W limited I have used:

155gr

165gr

170gr

175gr

180gr

200gr

220gr

Skill level, gun weight, slide weight, powder and targeted power factor all influence what combo will work best for you. That skill level thing and having confidence in your setup is what counts not what everyone else says is best for them.

Out.

2011BLDR

[jcc7x7]

Get a load that works and shoot it

[deerassassin22]

200's will also feel lower (sluggish) to some people. Your best bet is to try working up loads for 100 or so of each to the same power factor and see which you prefer. I shoot 180's and am perfectly happy with them. They are also a little cheaper than the 200's, less lead.

200 grain bullets are actually cheaper.

[Hallz]

I just tried some Xtreme plated 180's and 200's with CFE and to me there was not really enough difference to matter. Loading 1.18 with 5.6 grains in the 180's and 5.0 grains in the 200's. Both just at 165 pf. Ran out of WST and was testing the CFE- looks like both loads need to be increased a little. I have to say that WST feels a little softer to me than CFE, btw.

Courious as to your load data with WST, i am going to try some minor with 200grn Xtreams and WST.

Thank you

[enzo357]

Bear Creek 200s with titegroup were recommended from a super squad GM. Quick and smooth.

[johnbu]

Technically you are all correct and you get no argument from me about what you "should" experience between the 2 bullet weights at the same PF. When we are discussing "perceived recoil" this is where the human factor enters the technical equation and as we all know everything in shooting is personal and opinionated. When someone states that you get less recoil using a heavier bullet at the same PF there will be 100 people tell you they cannot feel the difference and another hundred that will say they can. I was merely pointing out the largest difference or a difference that is so pronounced you can actually discern it. A powder with a loud report or has a lot of muzzle blast, even though the actual recoil may be less, is perceived by the human experience to be more. The difference is easier to "perceive" using a fast, low report, low muzzle blast type of powder regardless of the Scientifics of this subject. Just to point this out so that when someone purchases the heavier bullet expecting less recoil and then thinks we were all lying to them. You won't be able to tell the difference, or at least I can't using a medium burning powder. For me it is quite pronounced using fast powder that is already known for lower perceived recoil characteristics.

That's a very good point. I often tell new shooters to wear both plugs AND muffs. Flinching and spastic trigger action is greatly reduced nearly instantly

[chowtime]

My WST load for 40 minor with 200's was 2.8gns at 1.13. Made 130 PF out of a glock 22.