Support index finger in front of trigger guard?

[BOOM]

jerry's using his weak hand to control muzzle flip, because of the lack of weight up front of a polymer gun . What about muzzle dipping. Just had to try it, NOT much change. Bob Vogel Grip IS..

[eddiegunks]

after 25 years using a 45 acp 1911 i switched to a 9mm glock.

i started with my same grip, but i have found that using my support index finger on the front of the trigger guard has helped me with the glock.

some say do it, others say dont. but it is working for me. helps pull the gun down a bit and keeps it on target better. YMMV

[bubbadoc]

I have tried it but cannot get it to help/ feel right. THought with the oven mitt hands I have it would work but it losens the grip allowing an up and down movement to the pistol.. thus stringing shows up for me on target

[boudreux]

I've never shot any other way except with my finger in front of the trigger guard. I've tried putting it under but to me it is much more uncomfortable.

[paramajic4]

I use this technique with my CZ 75 Accu-Shadow, It just feels natural on this gun

[zjmccauley]

Feels good for me

[andy27al]

Not an effective way to grip the gun. Sure, it can be practiced until it works but it's not the best.

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[Gadela08]

finger in front of trigger guard doesnt work for me. BUT support pointer finger wrapped around the gun, and firmly planted onto the opposite grip is working for me very well right now.

I like Bob vogel's advice on grip- it makes sense to me.

[Blackhawk]

I think it depends on your hand size. It doesn't work for me. But pick one grip and stick with it. Then practice...

[HEAVY556]

Eric makes it work one way, Leatham does it just as fast another. Train, train, train. I think if you are new you could pick one way and go at it. If you are already used to a method, it may take longer and cause problems to re-learn a new technique.

[Uomu]

I have big hand with long fingers. This technique is good enough for me, especially for Glocks ( I ve build for them a special left thumb *thumb rest [generic]*). The flip of the barrel is almost nonexistent. Is add some pro cent at my score versus conventional grip

[abb1]

On 11/26/2014 at 11:51 AM, Gadela08 said:

finger in front of trigger guard doesnt work for me. BUT support pointer finger wrapped around the gun, and firmly planted onto the opposite grip is working for me very well right now.

I like Bob vogel's advice on grip- it makes sense to me.

 

Excellent video, and good advice, however, you have to remember that he is demonstrating on a glock. Although the fundamentals are the same, grip may be a little different on a 1911 or CZ. For example, having the offhand that much forward tends to interfere with my trigger finger on my CZ. 

Edited December 4, 2016 by abb1

[PhantomOne]

I found during dry fire practice that the pistol moved much less with my support finger on the trigger guard so that is what I do now.

[cmalin06]

I feel like this is similar to professional athletes. They may have a unorthodox form as a pitcher, batter or receiver.  But this form works for them.  

 

I guess whatever ever works for you.  I would obviously try not to mimic unorthodox forms just because someone else does it.  

[Sorpe]

I gave finger in front of the trigger guard a try of several months last year. I concluded it wasn't for me. I have twice taken classes from Vogel. As shown in the video posted above, he advocates getting as high on the gun as possible. In each class I took, he said that if having a finger in front of the trigger guard helps you get a higher grip, AND it works for you, then he would not say "Don't do it." He stopped short of recommending it, I think because of the difficulties in keeping pressure on the gun consistent, but he felt it has its place for some shooters.

Obviously, different makes of gun have differing trigger reach lengths, weight, grip angles, grip thicknesses, trigger pulls, etc. Every one of us also has unique hands. You put our unique hands with the numerous types of pistol and you have a nearly endless variety of possible grips. Doesn't take much intelligence to figure out that one size does not, and indeed cannot, fit all. If it works for you, wonderful.

I stopped doing finger in front of the trigger guard because I found myself caught in the trap of thinking that I could, with my grip, absolutely control recoil to the point of having virtually none. I suppose that can be done but, I have concluded, not by me. The harder I try to control recoil the more the gun behaves in unpredictable ways. Best advice on recoil management I've heard comes from Ron Avery (and probably others) who says, "Let recoil happen." If I stop trying to control recoil, the gun recoils in a predictable up/down manner. Then it's a matter of paying close enough attention so that as soon as the sights settle back down on the target I fire the next shot. If I don't pay close attention then the gun will tend to recoil up, then down, passing through and below the original sight picture until it rebounds. I don't want it to rebound (too slow) as I want to have already fired the shot. Getting that to happen takes lots more brain and vision power than grip power. And many times I fail. 

This is a fun topic. Lots to be said.

[ngodwetrust21]

I like the finger in front. I shot for a while doing the Vogel grip. Not all of us are strong enough to close the captains of crush # 3 gripper... 

If you think about the finger in front, it does exactly what Bob talks about in the video. Hand moves further forward and higher on the gun. You can still put the side to side force with the forearms and your finger is able to really latch on to the trigger guard and keep the muzzle from moving about as much. To me, it is almost common sense that this would control recoil more.

Edited December 20, 2016 by ngodwetrust21

[bigcalidave]

What's the point, you can't physically defeat the gun. Let recoil happen, as quoted from ron earlier. If we can shoot fast while letting the gun move, why do something awkward to prevent it. If your hands are bigger than the gun and that's the only place your fingers go, sure. 

[DukeEB]

I tried it, and didn't like it.  CZ-75's have a spot for this on the front of the trigger guard, but my finger always came off and I had to reset.  My fingers aren't long enough for it I think. 

I took a Ron Avery class, and "Let recoil happen" was a big part of the class.  Definitely helped me.

[Jake Di Vita]

1 hour ago, bigcalidave said:

What's the point, you can't physically defeat the gun. Let recoil happen, as quoted from ron earlier. If we can shoot fast while letting the gun move, why do something awkward to prevent it. 

 

15 minutes ago, DukeEB said:

I took a Ron Avery class, and "Let recoil happen" was a big part of the class.  Definitely helped me.

 

I just can't get on board with this line of thinking.

I think both speed and accuracy at speed are negatively effected by being soft behind the gun. Ron is a good enough shooter that I'm surprised he would say something other than this.

No one is trying to "defeat" the gun. The goal of a proper stance and grip is to redirect as much of the energy from recoil as possible through your body into the ground instead of letting the muzzle do whatever it wants. The better you can do this the more control you'll have over the gun and the less it will move during recoil. I think it's logical to say the less the gun moves the faster you'll be back on target and the closer you'll be to where it was during the previous shot.

Squeeze hard and never stop driving the gun to the target.

[ngodwetrust21]

1 hour ago, Jake Di Vita said:

 

 

I just can't get on board with this line of thinking.

I think both speed and accuracy at speed are negatively effected by being soft behind the gun. Ron is a good enough shooter that I'm surprised he would say something other than this.

No one is trying to "defeat" the gun. The goal of a proper stance and grip is to redirect as much of the energy from recoil as possible through your body into the ground instead of letting the muzzle do whatever it wants. The better you can do this the more control you'll have over the gun and the less it will move during recoil. I think it's logical to say the less the gun moves the faster you'll be back on target and the closer you'll be to where it was during the previous shot.

Squeeze hard and never stop driving the gun to the target.

Well said sir.

[alma]

I am in the process of relearning how to shoot and I believe the mentality to let recoil happen has been one of several limiting factors to my development. I am focusing now on really improving my grip and resistance with my support hand and it seems to be helping greatly with recoil control, and helping to minimize pulling shots low and off target. Much to learn still but I like that I am finally seeing progress  

[perttime]

Cannot do it with revolvers. So, I decided not to do it with anything else either.

[drewbeck]

I haven't taken a class with Ron but have shot quite a few matches with him and I'd agree with Jake that "let recoil happen" is being taken out of context or misunderstood with regards to grip.  

If I had to guess, I'd say he was speaking more to getting mentally past the "explosion" (recoil) happening in your hands so you can begin to SEE what is happening vs anticipating or trying to control the recoil somehow.

The bottom line is recoil, and muzzle rise/flip are two entirely different things that happen simultaneously when the gun fires.  You must have recoil (cycling the gun) to shoot again. You do not have to have any muzzle flip in order to shoot again.

Think about this, Newton's 3rd law (still undisputed I believe) says for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. In gun design, this means the force pushing the bullet out of the barrel is going to have an opposite reaction straight back, this by the way is what browning understood and first put to use in the semi auto to cycle the action and is the basis of design for all modern inertia semi autos. 

So here's the question... where is the energy coming from that "makes" the gun flip? If you shoot uphill does the gun flip down? 

 

Get your mind past past the thought that recoil and flip are related and you'll really be able to "let recoil happen"

 

 

[perttime]

3 hours ago, drewbeck said:

So here's the question... where is the energy coming from that "makes" the gun flip? If you shoot uphill does the gun flip down?

The reaction (recoil) happens about where the barrel of the gun is. You grip the gun lower than that. So, you have levers working there. That is one reason why people grip as high as possible. That just isn't high enough to eliminate muzzle flip on conventional handguns.

Edited December 28, 2016 by perttime

[drewbeck]

The reaction (recoil) happens about where the barrel of the gun is. You grip the gun lower than that. So, you have levers working there. That is one reason why people grip as high as possible. That just isn't high enough to eliminate muzzle flip on conventional handguns.

No disagreement that the lever is playing role and against our favor in recoil management.

Regardless, it can still be overcome with enough opposite force. Most people including myself aren't yet capable of doing that however, it doesn't mean you should let the gun drive you vs you driving the gun


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