Hit Factor for stages

[TheBrick]

I finished Ben Stoegers book and he discussed the hit factor for stages.

The unanswered question I have is:

How does one look at a stage and estimate the hit factor for that particular stage?

I think I know what to do with the hit factor once it is known but I do not know how to figure it out for an unshot stage.

Any help?

[TheBrick]

The silence is deafening

[juan]

here is what I do

you collect a bank of info over the years you basicly know how long it takes you to shoot certain arrays.

last match you probably shot a stage similar to the one in question.

all of this gets refinrd over time

[jcarpenter82]

Im curious as well. Ive had a buddy tell me to go fast on a particular classifier so i shot it like 3gun.. put two on paper somewhere;hit factor high. Had him tell me to get as many alphas on another classifier, did that but felt slow as snail;still high hut factor

He could look at a stage and tell whether speed was more criticalor if hits were.

[Chris iliff]

Guys, this only happens over time. You have to know, by looking, how long it's gonna take you to perform the various tasks the stage is gonna require. It also helps to know some things like "if I'm gonna come to a complete stop at a position what does that cost me in time?"

As a very general rule, very general, each stop and start position costs 3 seconds. This is just the "stopping & starting" not the shooting you are gonna do at the position, you got to add that in there too. I use this for me and it seems to be a good general rule. I got it from something CHA-LEE wrote and I tested it for myself and it's about right, for me, you do your own testing.

So, I look at a stage and say to myself it has 3 places were I'm gonna set up hard (stop). Ok that's 9 seconds, then I add in the shooting at each stop, ok I decide the shooting is gonna be 2,4,3 seconds respectively, so I'm at 18 sec now. See, you have to know how long certain shooting (arrays) are gonna take you to complete. Then I add in an shooting positions that I can "roll" through shooting on the move. These I give 1and a half seconds plus the shooting. If it's just a paper and it's close, like 5-6 yards or less, I add nothing because for that I'm not even slowing down.

Now let's pretend for arguments sake that the above stage, for me, is 20 seconds and it's 100 points. Soooo, a 5 HF, right? Well yeah except I'm only gonna usually get 92% of the points so my HF will be around 4.6.

Now here is the kicker, I'm a Master, which starts at 85% of a GM. I would adjust my 4.6 HF up 15% to get to a top GM. So a top GM would shoot this at about a 5.4HF.

I think this stuff is good to know, it can help you make an informed decision on how to shoot a particular stage. But, I would by no means get caught up in it.

Just learn to be efficient, if you do that, you will be fine.

Edited November 23, 2013 by Chris iliff

[kneelingatlas]

At least in the local matches I shoot, the distinction is generally clear: its either a 'hoser' stage or not. Although I don't think I'm at a point where I can consciously trade points for speed.

[CHA-LEE]

The easiest way to figure out the hit factor of a stage is to time yourself as you dry fire a complete stage run. Then take the total available points and subtract 10%. Then divide the remaining 90% of the points by your dry fire time. The key in doing this is to dry fire the stage at a realistic speed and pace. I see a lot of shooters dry fire a stage WAY faster than they will shoot it. That is a very bad habit and must be fixed before you even start worrying about the probable hit factor of a stage.

[Chris iliff]

The easiest way to figure out the hit factor of a stage is to time yourself as you dry fire a complete stage run. Then take the total available points and subtract 10%. Then divide the remaining 90% of the points by your dry fire time. The key in doing this is to dry fire the stage at a realistic speed and pace. I see a lot of shooters dry fire a stage WAY faster than they will shoot it. That is a very bad habit and must be fixed before you even start worrying about the probable hit factor of a stage.

Well duh Charlie! I just don't have your efficiency yet, in words,......or stage breakdown! Lol

[TheBrick]

I thought that it would be as difficult as Chris described. I just can't see myself doing all that math during the 5 minute walkthrough on a 32 round memory stage.

However, I do see the value of using the hit factor to determine your speed/accuracy in stages like the classsifiers as Jcarpenter's friend did.

I think the value in using the hit factor is on long stages afterwards to compare just how fast or slow you were against the top shooter,

My opinion is that this is talked aboput a lot but not really worth the effort until you get to the top.

Thanks for all the information.

[TroyB]

That's a lot to think about. I wonder, when do shooters start thinking this way, when they get to B,A, Master? I'm a D and C class shooter right now, I'm just wondering, when do I have to start thinking to be able to compete those who are better than me. Yes, I know the better answer would be probably "now", but I still just want to go out and learn a few things and keep having fun.

[Chills1994]

What works for me is just figuring out the time. Whatever the min round count is for the stage, depending on the stage layout, my raw time should be well under the MRC.

You'll notice that the IDPA classifier is a 90 round CoF. The cutoff for master is right around the 90 second mark. Yeah, yeah, I know, it's IDPA.

There have probably been times when I shot a 32 round field course in less than 20 seconds. Then there have been other times wheree it has been a 30 second stage.

I gues you'd have to look at the performance summary reports from say Nats for the top 5 guys in limited to see if my MRC vs. Time really works.

Think about what a 10.00 hit factor actually means: 2 Alphas per second.

[CHA-LEE]

I use to get all wrapped around the axle in wanting to know what the probable high hit factor of a stage was going to be before shooting it. I thought that if I knew if the stage was speed or accuracy biased based on the probable hit factor that I could some how create a "Special" plan for shooting the stage. This resulted in a lot of train wreck stage performances and worrying over nothing in the end. When you boil it down to the basics, regardless of the probable high hit factor of the stage, all you can do is shoot as many points as reasonably possible in the least amount of time. If you look at every stage with this same goal in mind then it really does not matter what the probable high hit factor is going to be. All you have to do is optimize your stage plan and performance to shoot as many points as possible while eliminating as much wasted time as possible. If you do that, your hit factor will usually end up being the high hit factor for the stage or very close to it.

The more I participate in this game the more I realize that the "Stage Plan" isn't the "secret sauce", its the execution of your stage plan. An awesome plan that is executed poorly will almost always result in a worse hit factor than a marginal plan that is executed solidly. If you come up with a stage plan that does a good job of eliminating wasted actions then execute the plan solidly, that is going to be pretty hard to beat. If you do that, who cares what the probable high hit factor is?

[Chris iliff]

That's some good stuff,^^^^^^^^

The question was how it's done so the very few times I've ever bothered, I described. CHA-LEE is saying the exact same thing, bit he is saying it with GM efficiency, lol.

I almost never care what the HF is gonna be. I just try to pick the most efficient way to shoot the stage. If I can do this, I'll shoot to my ability.

Knowing "how" on some of these things is good info

Edited November 25, 2013 by Chris iliff

[Hi-Power Jack]

who cares what the probable high hit factor is?

I took a course with a GM seven years ago, and he explained how he determined what his time would be for a COF -

very interesting, but you had to know quite a bit about how YOU shoot to do it.

I asked another GM a few years ago how he determined his Hit Factor for a COF, and he said he didn't see any

reason to do that .... Just plan it out and do it.

[CHA-LEE]

The only time I will consider figuring out the probable high hit factor for a stage is when I am thinking about using a stage plan where I am purposefully eating penalties such as a procedural or misses. For example, if a stage has a disappearing target and I am considering blowing it off because it takes too much time to engage, the only way I can validate the plan of blowing it off is to know what the probable high hit factor is so I can know how many points each second is worth. If its a 10 hit factor stage and I can save 1.5 seconds by blowing off a disappearing target then its well worth blowing it off and eating the no penalty misses. If its a 5 hit factor stage and I can only save 1.5 seconds by blowing off the disappearing target then its NOT worth blowing off. I would have to save at least 2 seconds by blowing it off to make it a wash.

Other than the example above, I really don't care what the probable high hit factor of a stage is. All I can do is shoot the stage to my ability and execute my plan as solidly as possible. When the shooting is done, my hit factor will be appropriate to how well I broke down the stage to eliminate wast and how solidly I executed my stage plan.

[kirbinster]

This is a very interesting topic, and at this point I think way beyond my skill level. I just started this game a few months back. At first all I cared about was making my hits. I know I had a lot of wasted time and motion as I would try to get as close to a target as possible to insure the best hit. I have now learned that it makes more sense to where possible pick a location and engage more targets from that location even if it means getting a charlie or two versus all alphas. I have also learned to let a few moving targets go by if it would take too long. I look forward to the time when I start doing some of the things I have been reading in this thread. BTW I just recently classified at the "C" level.

[Hi-Power Jack]

I learned it makes more sense to engage more targets from that location even if it means getting a Charlie .

I'm just learning that you try to shoot on the move - don't stop and engage targets from any spot,

if possible. That will make you a B shooter.

[kirbinster]

I learned it makes more sense to engage more targets from that location even if it means getting a Charlie .

I'm just learning that you try to shoot on the move - don't stop and engage targets from any spot,

if possible. That will make you a B shooter.

While you are probably correct; one must learn to walk before they run, and run before they can fly. I am currently working on running, to fly at this point would likely lead to a crash

[2muchvdos]

i noticed on one stage of my first uspsa match, i had all alphas and 1 mike. since im new to running and gunning i tend to take my time to try and make sure im accurate. then i get the results of the match and my time was double plus to any of the guys that werent accurate but there time was way faster. This obviously made my hit factor sink. I have a fun run match tomorrow and will try to go a lil faster.

[Cd662]

i noticed on one stage of my first uspsa match, i had all alphas and 1 mike. since im new to running and gunning i tend to take my time to try and make sure im accurate. then i get the results of the match and my time was double plus to any of the guys that werent accurate but there time was way faster. This obviously made my hit factor sink. I have a fun run match tomorrow and will try to go a lil faster.

Your hit factor is static, that does not change in relation to how other people perform. The amount of stage points you earn is in relation to whoever gets 100% on that particular stage.

[jcc7x7]

If I shoot my game plan and do it efficiently my HF is always high. Seems like I go as fast as I can see my sights, as a well known person of this sight says!!

Where I get in trouble is when a stage looks "easy" and I over run , i.e. over shoot my sights. I'm more concerned about the plan and exacution of the plan than trying to figure a HF prior to shooting it.