GregSmith Posted December 16, 2012 Author Share Posted December 16, 2012 (edited) I was watching the local news today. (I'm about 15 minutes from the Oregon mall shooting.) They were interviewing a guy that was in the mall with a concealed permit, as the shooter's gun jammed, he drew his gun and targeted him. He didn't shoot, but might have saved many many more people from dying. Here's the story: http://www.kgw.com/n...-183593571.html During the TV interview, he seemed like he engaged the shooter more than the article online implies... Edited December 16, 2012 by GregSmith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 I was watching the local news today. (I'm about 15 minutes from the Oregon mall shooting.) They were interviewing a guy that was in the mall with a concealed permit, as the shooter's gun jammed, he drew his gun and targeted him. He didn't shoot, but might have saved many many more people from dying. Here's the story: http://www.kgw.com/n...-183593571.html During the TV interview, he seemed like he engaged the shooter more than the article online implies... Its easier to take a shot when your life is the one in jeopardy. Its harder to train people to take the shot when other peoples lives are at stake. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 I can see that happening. I'd imagine it would be a surreal situation that would hard to grasp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoleroJesse Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Yeah, conspiracies never actually happen..... That would meant that evil people actually "got together" and "planned" something! I think you'll be surprised by what our lawmakers have planned for us this time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregSmith Posted December 17, 2012 Author Share Posted December 17, 2012 Pat, totally agree. I can't even imagine being in that position. No faulting him. The post was to point out that it was a possibility that a person with a CCW just saved many lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepswithdogs Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) A different perspective on these terrible tragedies. I'm wondering what meds if any, these people were on. Some of the psychotropic drugs have the effect of removing inhibitions allowing say, someone with anger issues to act out in a way that there non-drugged brain would never have allowed. Pharmaceutical companies and MD's are handing these meds out like they were candy with little true understanding of the effects these drugs may produce. Below is a synopsis of a case in FL in 2002 found in Wiki. At 5 p.m. EST, 15-year-old Bishop reportedly stole the small aircraft. As soon as the plane took off, the air traffic controllers alerted the United States Coast Guard and the MacDill Air Force Base. Despite repeated warnings from a helicopter dispatched by the Coast Guard, the small plane continued on until it collided with an office building. The plane crashed between the 23rd and 24th floors of the 42-story building.[1][2] In April 2002, transcripts obtained from the Federal Aviation Administration revealed new details about the incident, which included how close the small plane came to a Southwest Airlines Flight.[4] Bishop's mother filed a $70 million (2002 USD) lawsuit against Roche Laboratories, who makes an acne medicine called Accutane. According to the lawsuit claim the medicine had side effects such as depression and suicidal actions, which the claim stated as the cause of the incident.[3] The suit was dropped on June 26, 2007, by Bishop's mother, who stated she was physically and emotionally unable to continue the action.[5] I'm not much on conspiracies, and don't for a second think anyone from our government was involved in any way with these tragedies. However, that said, I am wondering how much the media will say about what drugs these people were taking. The pharmaceutical industry is extremely influential. There is abundant literature warning of psychotropic over prescription and the unknown effects. Below are portions from one such article. Psychotropic Medications Overprescribed to Children, Study Suggests Apr. 20, 2010 — A new study from the Journal of Marital & Family Therapy warns of the dramatic rise in the use of psychotropic medications for children. One in every fifty Americans is now considered permanently disabled by mental illness, and up to eight million children take one or more psychotropic drugs. "If the psychiatric community has been misled by pharmaceutical companies in thinking that these drugs are safe for their children, the parents of these children have been in turn deluded into putting their children in harm's way." The authors continue that the pharmaceutical industry is largely influenced by the desire for economic profit, and the marketing muscle behind the industry, and leniency of institutions such as the FDA, tout benefits that are not yet properly evaluated for pediatric use. Between 1994 and 2001, psychotropic prescriptions for adolescents rose more than sixty percent; the rise post-1999 was connected to the development and marketing of several new psychotropic drugs and the rebranding of several older ones." Yet another article stating my exact concerns. http://www.cchr.org/...ide-booklet.pdf The amount of violence in today’s society is truly astounding—and the sheer number of theories attempting to explain it can leave the average person shaking his head in confusion. One cause is known: the astonishing rise in psychiatric drug-related crime. In fact, Harvard University’s Dr. Joseph Glenmullen warns that antidepressants could explain the rash of school shootings and mass suicides over the last decade. People taking them “feel like jumping out of their skin. The irritability and impulsivity can make people suicidal or homicidal.”2 A study of 950 acts of violence committed by people taking antidepressants found 362 murders, 13 school shootings, 5 bomb threats or bombings, 24 acts of arson, 21 robberies, 3 pilots who crashed their planes and more than 350 suicides and suicide attempts. Medical studies show that patients with no history of violence, develop “violent urges to assault” while under the effects of psychiatric drugs. Tar Edited December 17, 2012 by Sleepswithdogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothguy Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Sleepswithdogs, I think your on to something. I wonder if the Arizona, Colorado and Connecticut cases have a pharmaceutical connection. The shooters had similar long standing social issues for which they would have sought or been given treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepswithdogs Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Sleepswithdogs, I think your on to something. I wonder if the Arizona, Colorado and Connecticut cases have a pharmaceutical connection. The shooters had similar long standing social issues for which they would have sought or been given treatment. I'm concerned the media is not making any connection, not asking these questions at all, and I wonder why. All the talk is centered on fire arms which is the occasional instrument of the crime, but not the actual cause of the event. The power of the pharmaceutical companies is quite concerning and leaves me wondering if they are laying down by some means, what is "responsible" reporting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobmysterious Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Just because a medication is prescribed, doesn't mean the patient is taking it. Big Pharma isn't the issue here, education and awareness about mental illness are much more pertinent to this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab25 Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Just because a medication is prescribed, doesn't mean the patient is taking it. Big Pharma isn't the issue here, education and awareness about mental illness are much more pertinent to this discussion. +1 Florida NFA trusts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepswithdogs Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) Just because a medication is prescribed, doesn't mean the patient is taking it. Big Pharma isn't the issue here, education and awareness about mental illness are much more pertinent to this discussion. Your opinion differs greatly from many studies I would be happy to produce. Education? These last two were educated people. Awareness of mental illnesses; by statistics mental illness is an epidemic in this country, but how would awareness have changed this outcome at all? Take the time to do a little reading on the effect of psychotropic drugs on some patients. The internet is full of articles and studies concerning this exact phenomenon. Look at it this way; if marijuana can make you "stoned," if acid can make you hallucinate, don't you think it is possible some powerful psychotropic drug might release violent, pent up urges? Tar Edited December 17, 2012 by Sleepswithdogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepswithdogs Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 ANTIDEPRESSANTS The Comprehensive Textbook of Psychiatry/IV, published in 1985, says "The tricyclic-type drugs are the most effective class of anti-depressants" (Williams & Wilkins, p. 1520). But in his book Overcoming Depression, published in 1981, Dr. Andrew Stanway, a British physician, says "If anti-depressant drugs were really as effective as they are made out to be, surely hospital admission rates for depression would have fallen over the twenty years they've been available. Alas, this has not happened. ... Many trials have found that tricyclics are only marginally more effective than placebos, and some have even found that they are not as effective as dummy tablets" (Hamlyn Publishing Group, Ltd., p. 159-160) http://www.antipsychiatry.org/drugs.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepswithdogs Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 In 1989, Joseph Wesbecker shot dead eight people and injured 12 others before killing himself at his place of work in Kentucky. Wesbecker had been taking the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) antidepressant fluoxetine for four weeks before these homicides, and this led to a legal action against the makers of fluoxetine, Eli Lilly [1]. The case was tried and settled in 1994, and as part of the settlement a number of pharmaceutical company documents about drug-induced activation were released into the public domain. Subsequent legal cases, some of which are outlined below, have further raised the possibility of a link between antidepressant use and violence. http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pmed.0030372 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobmysterious Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 By education and awareness I'm referring to the general public. Many people are not aware of the ways mental illness manifests itself and treatment options that are available. Often patients know something is wrong and don't seek help either because they are unaware that they are suffering from a chemical imbalance, or solely because of the stigma surrounding mental illness. Friends and Family may also suspect something is wrong, but don't intervene because they don't understand the problem or the ways that it can be dealt with. Oh, and I work in the CNS division of a pharmaceutical company. This is the patient type I deal with on a daily basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepswithdogs Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) The FDA conducted an epidemiological study comparing rates of violent behavior for Prozac and another antidepressant, trazodone. The reports were drawn from the FDA's spontaneous reporting system that includes all events reported to the drug company and the FDA. The FDA found greatly increased reporting rates for violence on Prozac even when taking into account the higher number of prescriptions for Prozac. Also, the increased rate of violence reports began even before there was publicity and controversy surrounding the problem. When I attempted to obtain this data from the FDA, the agency told me it had been lost. However, I was able to obtain the data in the form of charts from the drug company through discovery. I testified about this in 1994 and published it in my books, but again the FDA and the drug company have not responded. http://www.ahrp.org/risks/SSRI0904/Breggin.php Edited December 17, 2012 by Sleepswithdogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepswithdogs Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Furthermore, the FDA overlooked other related hazards that swell the numbers of children afflicted with serious and life-threatening adverse drug reactions. Antidepressant-induced mania is very common. The FDA-approved label for Luvox, for example, cites a rate of 4% for mania and manic-like symptoms. A controlled clinical trial by Emslie et al. (1997, p. 1003) disclosed a 6% rate of mania for children taking Prozac in a controlled clinical trial. Antidepressant-induced manic behavior can disrupt a child's life and result in injury to others. It commonly results in a false diagnosis of bipolar disorder leading to stigmatization and many years or a lifetime of unnecessary, harmful treatment with drugs. While mentioning violence as a potential subject for investigation, the FDA did not analyze data related to antidepressant-induced violence. Experts in the field agree that suicide and violence emanate from the same basic impulses. A drug that causes suicide will also cause violence, and vice versa. http://www.ahrp.org/risks/SSRI0904/Breggin.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepswithdogs Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Antidepressant-Induced Suicidality and Violence: More About Deception than Science Observations Made at the AHRP Press Conference in Conjunction with FDA Hearings, September 14, 2004 By Peter R. Breggin, M.D. The FDA is finally admitting that the newer antidepressants, especially the SSRIs and Effexor (venlafaxine), cause suicide in children. I first drew these conclusions about the SSRIs and began publishing them in 1994 in Talking Back to Prozac (Breggin and Breggin, 1994). In addition, I reviewed and analyzed the entire literature shortly before the February hearings (Breggin, 2003/2004). Ten years is a long time to wait for official recognition of such important risks. The delay in recognition has much more to do with organized deceptions than with science. http://www.ahrp.org/risks/SSRI0904/Breggin.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepswithdogs Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 By education and awareness I'm referring to the general public. Many people are not aware of the ways mental illness manifests itself and treatment options that are available. Often patients know something is wrong and don't seek help either because they are unaware that they are suffering from a chemical imbalance, or solely because of the stigma surrounding mental illness. Friends and Family may also suspect something is wrong, but don't intervene because they don't understand the problem or the ways that it can be dealt with. Oh, and I work in the CNS division of a pharmaceutical company. This is the patient type I deal with on a daily basis. I'm sorry, this sounds like corporate double speak to me. What do you propose, general public education courses on mental illness manifestation and treatment options??? Doesn't sound plausible or effective to me. Tar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothguy Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 By education and awareness I'm referring to the general public. Many people are not aware of the ways mental illness manifests itself and treatment options that are available. Often patients know something is wrong and don't seek help either because they are unaware that they are suffering from a chemical imbalance, or solely because of the stigma surrounding mental illness. Friends and Family may also suspect something is wrong, but don't intervene because they don't understand the problem or the ways that it can be dealt with. Oh, and I work in the CNS division of a pharmaceutical company. This is the patient type I deal with on a daily basis. I agree with you and I did not mean to suggest that there is a drug company conspiracy. I am however curious as to the treatment and any medication in common with the recent shooting events. I keep thinking about the trouble with Ambien a few years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extractor Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 There is going to be some far reaching gun control measures from this shooting, never before have the politicians and law makers have had such an opportunity than what they have been presented with now after the utter tragedy of the murder of these young innocents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 WOW! Watching the anti gun train picking up speed on the news. They are making this kids poor mom sound like some kind of total outcast because she owned guns and frequently went to firing ranges. JESUS, if going to a firing range makes one look abnormal how would they look upon us? Using their logic if they went into my gun/reloading room they would arrest me on the spot and have me committed! I do fault her for knowing her kid had issues and not keeping guns locked up, if that is indeed the case. He could have stole the safe combo without her knowing it but it does not seem that is the case. This is tragic and I feel for all those who lost loved ones but the results of this are going to be devastating to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 "No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee." John Donne It is the System that governs the world which is evil. Nation states run by a worldwide banking empire are incarcerating, enslaving, and killing us all, like so many heads of cattle. I wish people could see, it doesn't matter what nation we live in. It doesn't matter which political party or religious belief we hold to. There is only one race! The Human Race. I liked Bob Marley's take on it. "Will ya let the system make ya kill ya brother man? No, No, No!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCMJ Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Restricting lawful ownership won't fix it. As usual the press and "our" representatives focus on a quick fix instead of dealing with the real issue; lack of availability of appropriate mental health care. Read this one over, I have some experience with this morass, my father was a raging bipolar in his last years and it was a nightmare getting any help at all. http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC1 Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Media with an agenda is what I hate. You had to ALMOST get lucky to hear about the CCW guy that stopped the mass shooting at the mall in Oregon a week ago. The shooter killed two people before being confronted by a civilian with a carry permit, he the shooter took his own life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothguy Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) Restricting lawful ownership won't fix it. As usual the press and "our" representatives focus on a quick fix instead of dealing with the real issue; lack of availability of appropriate mental health care. Read this one over, I have some experience with this morass, my father was a raging bipolar in his last years and it was a nightmare getting any help at all. http://anarchistsocc...nthinkable.html By education and awareness I'm referring to the general public. Many people are not aware of the ways mental illness manifests itself and treatment options that are available. Often patients know something is wrong and don't seek help either because they are unaware that they are suffering from a chemical imbalance, or solely because of the stigma surrounding mental illness. Friends and Family may also suspect something is wrong, but don't intervene because they don't understand the problem or the ways that it can be dealt with. Oh, and I work in the CNS division of a pharmaceutical company. This is the patient type I deal with on a daily basis. I agree with you and I did not mean to suggest that there is a drug company conspiracy. I am however curious as to the treatment and any medication in common with the recent shooting events. I keep thinking about the trouble with Ambien a few years ago. I think there are some real key points here. Mental health care is going to become an increasingly expensive problem. As the population ages Alzheimer's patients will become more prevalent absorbing more of the mental health resources. Edited December 17, 2012 by toothguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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