breaking static clay targets

[StealthyBlagga]

..."give the shooter the benefit of the doubt"...

... should never be part of an ROs vocabulary. Seriously - giving a competitor a score they may not have earned does all the other competitors in the match a grave disservice. The job of the RO is to provide a safe and equitable competitive environment for every competitor, not necessarily to be popular.

Frankly, I see surprisingly few scoring disputes with clays (static or flying) - certainly a lot less than with paper targets at a USPSA pistol match. If we are going to get all bent out of shape over 3-Gun target that are open to subjective RO interpretation and widespread mis-calls, I would point to reactive, self-resetting steel rifle targets like the R&R.

[AustinT]

I completely disagree. If the RO cannot definitively determine that the competitor did not earn the score, the score should go to the competitor.

Not giving a competitor a score that they may have earned, and the RO may not have noticed, is doing that competitor a grave disservice. The job of the RO is to pay attention and score fairly, but everyone is human. I may be the only one, but I have personally failed to pay attention to the correct rifle target while calling hits for a shooter.

USPSA paper is far more definitive than flying clays - static clays are pretty definitive unless they're knocked off (which I also feel should be given to the shooter). Unless you have good video of the stage, you have to get flying clays right the first time, every time.

Whatever the determination for that match, it has to be decided beforehand and applied consistently.

[kurtm]

At the risk of sounding like a skipping record, all steel should fall. The unholy alliance between R.O. calling hits and shooter trying to listen should be abolished. No more flash targets, strobes that don't work, plastic Mil Plats that are swiss cheezed, make it resetable steel that falls when hit. No more clays that are not arbitratable...just like they do for 300 competitor matches run over-seas which run on time. I have got to feel that if they can do it we can do it...oh wait we used to do it but got lazy.

As for the clay thing...since we all say it test our shotgun skills, "just like out in the field" I will leave you with this little sonett that I wrote for Pat Kelley the last time this "clay" conversation came up.

Many a dove is forever dead with a single pellet through it's head.

many a bird will never fly with a single pellet through it's eye.

And so it must be for the phaux that flips and flys through the sky

a single pellet through it's clay kiln dried

Edited November 27, 2012 by kurtm

[StealthyBlagga]

At the risk of sounding like a skipping record, all steel should fall. The unholy alliance between R.O. calling hits and shooter trying to listen should be abolished.

I agree - I've never been thrilled by targets that require that degree of interpretation and attentiveness from the RO. If two guys have to gaze through binoculars, the target is too hard to score. Of the self-resetting rifle targets, I like LaRue Sniper targets the best followed by MGM Flash targets. The flashgun targets have always worked very well for us, but it seems the parts are no longer available . Best of all are the Army pop-up targets of course .

No more clays that are not arbitratable...

Nothing in IMA-SMM3G rules prohibits arbitrating a static clay target scoring call. Flying clays are not available to be examined by the RM or arbitration commtte, of course, which is why I personally try to minimize their use. As a sport we can really choose to not have them at all, or have them and accept the imperfect nature of the scoring calls.

Many a dove is forever dead with a single pellet through it's head.

many a bird will never fly with a single pellet through it's eye.

And so it must be for the phaux that flips and flys through the sky

a single pellet through it's clay kiln dried

Gulp - that brought a tear to my eye

Edited November 27, 2012 by StealthyBlagga

[AlamoShooter]

Early on a Sporting clay rule was ..<.miss quoted.>

The Rule for a Hit on Sporting Clay targets is. "Visible Piece" the Referee must see a visible piece come off the target.

My " Referee " certification is a bit out of date but I don't think that has changed.

A good eye on a spinning target at 40+ yards can see a piece the size of a grain of rice come off the target. BUT! the sporting Reff normally is only looking at one target and never more than two at a time. And the target flight path is reasonably consistent.

I will choke my gun for a static clay target at 15 yards the same as I would for a Sporting Target at 35yards.

The only way to put just one pellet hole on a static clay is by -Missing It- with 299 pellets.

[kurtm]

Anything arbitrary will cause problems. I once overheard an R.O. say to a shooter that he had a miss on an MGM flash target because it only flashed a little...said it had to give a significant flash indication or it was a miss! Significant????

[StealthyBlagga]

Anything arbitrary will cause problems. I once overheard an R.O. say to a shooter that he had a miss on an MGM flash target because it only flashed a little...said it had to give a significant flash indication or it was a miss! Significant????

The reason I am OK with the MGM Flash is that you either hit it or you didn't. Even a little movement is evidence of the hit. This as distinct from the R&R which can bobble due to a hit on the front plate.

Even an MGM Flash target can be tricky to score when it is still swinging from a previous hit. Also, the further away it is, the harder these kinds of targets are to reliably call. In general, I prefer any kind of flash-card target to be inside 300 yards so a clear call can be made without binoculars, and for them to be hit only once. Further out, I try to use LaRues.

[AlamoShooter]

I think we know the same RO

isn't there a way to spell > Arbitray < as a four letter word ?

[MarkCO]

The Noveske match had no flying or flipping clays this year, and won't in 2013. While I use them in local, it if only to give or guys practice since other matches still use them.

As for static clays, they can be looked at, just like a perf hit or miss on paper. I see no issue at all with them. If gunfire breaks them, knocks them off or makes a single hole, the shooter gets the target.

[High Lord Gomer]

I have home made flashing targets that have a 6" or 8" plate at the bottom of a piece of 5/8" threaded rod. A hit to the plate will swing it enough to show the full card that is behind. A hit to the threaded rod will cause it to wiggle and swing slightly. I warn people ahead of time and do not call those as hits.

It is amazing how many people show up with 50 (or even 25) yard zeroes and don't know why they are hitting way above the plate I have hung at 100 yards. My threaded rod gets hit almost as much as the plate.

[kurtm]

What does a middle edge hit on your target indicate like. I did a bunch of testing with an R&R and guess what an edger will give the same flash as a base hit. The target I was talking about was an MGM not any kind of target with a base on it that will also cause the plate to wiggle at all....and still this guy took it upon himself to say it had to have a significant flash....So let me ask you, if an edge hit shows the same indication as a base hit, when does the R.O. become the judge of what a "good enough" hit is?

[StealthyBlagga]

What does a middle edge hit on your target indicate like. I did a bunch of testing with an R&R and guess what an edger will give the same flash as a base hit. The target I was talking about was an MGM not any kind of target with a base on it that will also cause the plate to wiggle at all....and still this guy took it upon himself to say it had to have a significant flash....So let me ask you, if an edge hit shows the same indication as a base hit, when does the R.O. become the judge of what a "good enough" hit is?

I agree - on the MGM Flash, if it moves it was a hit.

[High Lord Gomer]

With mine, shooting the top, the legs, or the hanger gives a wiggle that only moves the cards an inch or so. When the steel plate is hit the front drops and the rear raises a foot or more. I haven't tried glancing one off the edge of the target.

[Krieghoff]

A visible piece or hole. Key word is visible.

[Blockhead]

Or, we could go with one hole, give the shooter the benefit of the doubt, not slow the match down, and not elevate everyone's blood pressure.

The "Golden" BB.

[pistolpete10]

If you only put 1 pellet in it you missed it, target should break. 1 pellet means you missed and a flier got it. Sorry.

[bikerburgess]

If you only put 1 pellet in it you missed it, target should break. 1 pellet means you missed and a flier got it. Sorry.

so minimum of 2 pellets? or 3? or 4?

[kurtm]

I say just to maintain the ambiguity of this thread that it has to be "a bunch" of pellets

[MarkCO]

How about you get scored how you "voted".

[Fullauto_Shooter]

If you only put 1 pellet in it you missed it, target should break. 1 pellet means you missed and a flier got it. Sorry.

Totally disagree - 1 pellet means you hit the target and if 1 pellet hit the target, it did break. Geez, why can't everyone just see things my way??

[Lead-Head]

The question was static clays, so I have to go with one pellet hole is "broken" The problem with the SG is that if one pellet from my gun might break the clay in half, while another might just poke a nice clean hole. But a hole is discernible. The target was shot. maybe not blow to pieces, but it was shot. As an RO, it makes my nuts hurt thinking about arbitrating cracks and chips. Steal plates that "must fall to score' are the answer to making shooters put the bulk of the pattern on the target.

[MarkCO]

So at the local match on Saturday, there was a scratch on a clay. Took off the orange leaving a white streak. Competitor did not re-engage. No hole, on the stand, not broken = Miss. First time i have seen a scratch, but there was no hole.

[assaulter]

The question was static clays, so I have to go with one pellet hole is "broken" The problem with the SG is that if one pellet from my gun might break the clay in half, while another might just poke a nice clean hole. But a hole is discernible. The target was shot. maybe not blow to pieces, but it was shot. As an RO, it makes my nuts hurt thinking about arbitrating cracks and chips. Steal plates that "must fall to score' are the answer to making shooters put the bulk of the pattern on the target.

Come on man. As long as the target has at least 27* of lateral rotation from the shooter's 180 I call that a good hit.

[Dan Sierpina]

So at the local match on Saturday, there was a scratch on a clay. Took off the orange leaving a white streak. Competitor did not re-engage. No hole, on the stand, not broken = Miss. First time i have seen a scratch, but there was no hole.

That could have been from handling the clay in the case.

[MarkCO]

So at the local match on Saturday, there was a scratch on a clay. Took off the orange leaving a white streak. Competitor did not re-engage. No hole, on the stand, not broken = Miss. First time i have seen a scratch, but there was no hole.

That could have been from handling the clay in the case.

Nope, it was a BB.