Alaskapopo Posted November 19, 2012 Author Share Posted November 19, 2012 I hear you. I think equipment will catch up to the demands eventually. Look at where we were just give years ago. It has...it's called the JP Fire Control System, and I'd bet it's been around for at least a decade. I've played with one of the Geissele 3 Gun triggers once, and I still cannot wrap my head around why someone would want to put something like that in any gun. But to each his or her own. What I liked about the 3G was for firing off hand the trigger was very easy to control without pulling your shot off target. It felt like a rolling motion instead of a glass rod where you can pull prematurely. Not sure how to explain it but it just seemed easier to time the break when shooting off hand. Now for shooting off a bench or barricade I prefer a 2 stage trigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregSmith Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 I noticed Colt Competition Rifle went with the Geissele SSA-E Trigger on their .308s. This might be one of the reasons. Then again, maybe they just didn't want to put the 3G trigger on a .308... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RANGER3BN Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Very interested in this thread. I have a S3G in my LaRue and I occasionally have a bump fire....I've attributed that to being in an unstable position. However, recently I've fired a round and then had to charge the weapon again...it appeared as though I had a light primer strike. I believe Randy above described it as short-stroking. I'm not sure if my issue is the same problem but it's aggravating and time consuming in a 3 gun match. A coworker installed the SD3G in his LaRue and sold it 3 weeks later. I'm quickly approaching the point of going back to a good 2 stage. I would be very interested to hear from those who installed the heavier spring...did it solve problem without adding a great deal of pull? You are experienceing hammer follow. I was helping a friend out with his rifle he had no time to sight it in due to a very busy work schedule so I took it out for him. It also had a Geisselle 3G on it. When I was shooting from the bench I would get a situation where it felt like the trigger did not reset. I racked the gun a live round would come out. Finally on the last one I did not run the action and I pulled the pulled the upper off the lower and found a live round in the chamber with the hammer down. The hammer was following the round and rather than doubling the chambered round did not fire. That same day I also got a double from my friends rifle as well. I told him about it and he sent the trigger back to Geisselle. They resurfaced the trigger for him (a 3G like mine) and so far its worked ok in one match. It may be that these triggers simply don't last as long as I would like. By triggers I mean the 3G. Alaska- That sounds very similar to my situation. I might have to send the trigger back and have it resurfaced. I just checked my log book...there is less than 500 rounds on that trigger...that's unacceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RANGER3BN Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 I hear you. I think equipment will catch up to the demands eventually. Look at where we were just give years ago. It has...it's called the JP Fire Control System, and I'd bet it's been around for at least a decade. I've played with one of the Geissele 3 Gun triggers once, and I still cannot wrap my head around why someone would want to put something like that in any gun. But to each his or her own. .....because it's fast....when it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lablover Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 I noticed Colt Competition Rifle went with the Geissele SSA-E Trigger on their .308s. This might be one of the reasons. Then again, maybe they just didn't want to put the 3G trigger on a .308... I think they will start using this trigger on all the guns. My crp was doubling when I shot it off the bags. Called colt and they sent me a box...I shipped it back and got it back to me in 3 days with the newer trigger in it. No more doubles. They said some of the early CRP's had this bad habit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwfuhrman Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I've see a lot of the the Super 3gun Triggers do that, but the new Super Dynamic 3 Gun(flat blade triggers) triggers don't do it. My buddy corey has the curved S3G and has the same issue that you do, but I have no issue with the SD3G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RufDog Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 "I've played with one of the Geissele 3 Gun triggers once, and I still cannot wrap my head around why someone would want to put something like that in any gun. But to each his or her own." ^^Well said. I've had a couple of the Geissles (3G & another whose name has escaped me). I found them both to come up short of the hype & gave them away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 I had a super light single stage trigger on my AR for a while. I found I need a little bit of pretravel or I tend to slap the trigger and drop shots. I like how the 3g has that pretravel but no second stage "wall". I just row through the pull smoothly and my hits are much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saibot Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 My buddy used the same trigger and started getting doubles. He did a little research and found that in most cases it's the shooter, not the trigger. After that he started paying closer attention to his pull and noticed when he shoots with a precision grip (loose with thumb not putting pressure on the grip) he would induce a bump fire. Once he realized the cause he corrected his grip and pull and hasn't had it happen in over a year. Hope this helps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Once he realized the cause he corrected his grip and pull and hasn't had it happen in over a year. Huh??? The gun is the tool. The gun should be changed or modified to fit the user. The user should not change to fit the gun!!! (Provided the technique is not "wrogn" per se). We have a variety of triggers, and comps, and stocks, etc. because we are all a little different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saibot Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 MarkCo- Well that was the short version. We had been shooting quite a bit of precision rifle at the time and we use a different grip for that type of shooting. Only the middle two fingers really make contact and the thumb is not around the grip, rather on top of the index finger. He had changed rifles without changing his grip, so in his case, it was pilot error. Once he took notice he applied the correct grip for the AR he was using and that was the end of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 But a military rifle only fires that way when the shooter intends it to. Here the rifle fired rounds when the shooter DIDN'T intend. Like a car that stops on a dime when you jam on the brakes, you intended to stop. But if it stops on its own while doing 70mph on the freeway, that could be a safety issue. If you see someone's rifle double you will immediately stop him and DQ him right then and there? Yes or no? In a USPSA match, I'll stop the shooter, (who gets a zero for the stage) and we'll test the gun. If the problem reoccurs the shooter is ordered to rectify the problem -- repair or switch..... On a second occurrence of burst fire, the shooter is disqualified from the match..... 10.4.7 Should a competitor shoot at a target or targets with burst or fully automatic fire (where more than one shot is discharged with one manipulation of the trigger), he will be scored zero and a warning issued. In the event of another infraction he will be disqualified from the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted November 24, 2012 Author Share Posted November 24, 2012 But a military rifle only fires that way when the shooter intends it to. Here the rifle fired rounds when the shooter DIDN'T intend. Like a car that stops on a dime when you jam on the brakes, you intended to stop. But if it stops on its own while doing 70mph on the freeway, that could be a safety issue. If you see someone's rifle double you will immediately stop him and DQ him right then and there? Yes or no? In a USPSA match, I'll stop the shooter, (who gets a zero for the stage) and we'll test the gun. If the problem reoccurs the shooter is ordered to rectify the problem -- repair or switch..... On a second occurrence of burst fire, the shooter is disqualified from the match..... 10.4.7 Should a competitor shoot at a target or targets with burst or fully automatic fire (where more than one shot is discharged with one manipulation of the trigger), he will be scored zero and a warning issued. In the event of another infraction he will be disqualified from the match. If you stop the shooter and there is not a problem no I don't get a zero I get a re-shoot. So when you go over to test the gun it had better double if not I get a re-shoot. Same as a squip. If you stop the shooter and he does indeed have a squib he gets the stage as shot not a zero. If there is no squib and you stopped him for no reason basically he get sa reshoot. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted November 24, 2012 Author Share Posted November 24, 2012 Also the rule you quoted does not fit this situation as we are talking about a bump fire where the trigger is pulled twice very quickly where with a double the trigger is pulled once and the disconnecter fails and you get multiple shots per one trigger pull. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 There's a new USPSA 3 gun rulebook that's supposed to come out. Hopefully they fixed ANOTHER pistol rule adapted to 3 gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Also the rule you quoted does not fit this situation as we are talking about a bump fire where the trigger is pulled twice very quickly where with a double the trigger is pulled once and the disconnecter fails and you get multiple shots per one trigger pull. Pat +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Also the rule you quoted does not fit this situation as we are talking about a bump fire where the trigger is pulled twice very quickly where with a double the trigger is pulled once and the disconnecter fails and you get multiple shots per one trigger pull. Pat +1 Sure, theoretically that's correct. But if the RO observes a double (and since his perception/description of the event cannot be challenged) it's a stage zero per 10.4.7 -- at least until that changes.... You say it was two separate trigger pulls, the RO says they were much closer together than any fast two shots you fired anywhere else, and therefore the gun doubled and is unsafe..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 You say it was two separate trigger pulls, the RO says they were much closer together than any fast two shots you fired anywhere else, and therefore the gun doubled and is unsafe..... That's awful. Some (experienced) people here have posted that it's common to bump fire the AR15. Bump fire = two trigger presses. And then the shooter gets a zero even if he proves that the gun doubled because he bump fired it? Just awful. I'm really glad USPSA rules don't prevail in 3 gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted November 24, 2012 Author Share Posted November 24, 2012 You say it was two separate trigger pulls, the RO says they were much closer together than any fast two shots you fired anywhere else, and therefore the gun doubled and is unsafe..... That's awful. Some (experienced) people here have posted that it's common to bump fire the AR15. Bump fire = two trigger presses. And then the shooter gets a zero even if he proves that the gun doubled because he bump fired it? Just awful. I'm really glad USPSA rules don't prevail in 3 gun. Thats part of the reason I never did the effort to try and get a USPSA club affiliation. The rules are too confining. You even need special permission to use non standard targets. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepswithdogs Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 (edited) Once he realized the cause he corrected his grip and pull and hasn't had it happen in over a year. Huh??? The gun is the tool. The gun should be changed or modified to fit the user. The user should not change to fit the gun!!! (Provided the technique is not "wrogn" per se). We have a variety of triggers, and comps, and stocks, etc. because we are all a little different. Really like this approach. I have had discussions like this before and been told you should adapt to the gun, but I agree with you 100%, make the gun "fit" the user so they don't have to do any thinking about it. All the shooting becomes natural and is faster and more accurate. You can adapt to the wrong trigger all you want, but your scores will never be as good as they would be if using the right trigger. Edited November 24, 2012 by Sleepswithdogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 It is not the rules, one would not be experienced enough to run a stage if he does not understand the AR platform! A good MD RM will vette ROs sufficiently, end of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 You say it was two separate trigger pulls, the RO says they were much closer together than any fast two shots you fired anywhere else, and therefore the gun doubled and is unsafe..... That's awful. Some (experienced) people here have posted that it's common to bump fire the AR15. Bump fire = two trigger presses. And then the shooter gets a zero even if he proves that the gun doubled because he bump fired it? Just awful. I'm really glad USPSA rules don't prevail in 3 gun. I totally agree that this needs fixing..... Because as it stands now, there's not a lot an RM can do if the RO insists that the rifle doubled...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
45shooter Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 This is why uspsa 3 gun is basically dying. Outlaw rules may not be the best, but allow for common sense. As a md I am not gonna give someone a zero for a rule that doesn't make sense. Solution for my club was to drop uspsa and go all outlaw style multigun for 2013. Although uspsa is trying to bring rules up to date they just are not adapting quickly enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 I'll gladly trade my JP trigger to anyone who wants to get rid of their S3G/SD3G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbon9 Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 I'll gladly trade my JP trigger to anyone who wants to get rid of their S3G/SD3G. Done. PM me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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