GLOCK 17/22 OPEN DIVISION CONVERSION

[GorillaTactical]

GLOCK17/22 OPEN DIVISION CONVERSION

by:Josh Mazzola of Team AR15Targets

This thread/article has been written in an attempt to provide new Open shooters with a step by step analysis and discussion of converting a stock Glock 17/22 to an Open Glock. The following is my opinions on the matter based on my experiences, nothing more. I am not affiliated with any of the Glock Open-gun smith's or companies. I too, am new to Open Division but have a fairly decent track record in 3 Gun, Production, and Limited.

General Points of Discussion

What is Open Division? - Much like in racing, in the world of competitive shooting there are different divisions which allow different modifications to both the shooter's firearm and gear. Open division is basically the, "no holds barred" division and almost all modifications you can think of are allowed; from red dots and compensators to custom milling on slides.

(Jerry M. shooting his Open Gun at the Arkansas 2011 Multigun Championship)

What does it normally cost to get an Open-gun setup?- While this is an extremely subjective point of discussion, open guns normally range in price from $2000.00 at the absolute cheapest, to upwards of $5000 or more. When you start adding in magazines, gear, etc. the price just keeps going up. It is definitely the most expensive division in the practical shooting sports.

How does the Glock stack up in Open? - Most Open-guns are built on the 2011 (juiced up 1911) platform. So many rightfully ask, "how well can a striker fired polymer gun fare in this division?" Well the answer is, we really can't gather accurate stats on the topic. Very few Open shooters shoot Glocks, so to make a direct comparison on which platform is the best based on what the winning shooters are using, would be a flawed interpretation of data. With this said,the fact that not many Open shooters use Glocks definitely counts as a mark against Glocks in the Open division. Despite this fact, Dave Sevigny, formerly of Team Glock, was an absolute beast in Open with his customized Glock, and the new Glock team-shooter, KC Eusebio, is equally as impressive (

). So what it comes down to, in my opinion, is that simply put, the shooter makes the gun. However, if you have mad cash to burn, the 2011 would probably be the more "appropriate" choice for a pure Open build.

What are the differences between a DIY Open Glock and a true custom built Open Glock?- I referenced Dave Sevigny and KC Eusebio's custom Glocks above (I believe both shot builds from SJC Customs), so let's discuss the differences between the guns they are shooting, and something you can put together at home. What you are going to be doing does not equate to the guns that these guys have, but then again, you aren't doing this conversion with the hopes to become the Open champion with the gun right? We are going to be piecing together parts, we are not going to be perfectly blending each part together. This equates to sloppier tolerances, and more chance for failures in a DIY gun than a custom gun which has been tuned by a professional smith (who has most likely done hundreds of builds).

So then why DIY? - With all that said, a DIY Glock might sound like a lose-lose. But the purpose of this at-home conversion as I see it, is primarily for creating a "water tester". By undertaking this project, we can create a gun that gives us a chance to shoot in Open when we want, and see if it's something we are truly interested in. Not to mention we can swap back to stock configuration very easily if we don't care for Open without any permanent alterations having been made to our weapon. Another reason you might attempt this conversion is because it can provide a way for you to get your significant-other into shooting. Lady shooters, don't be upset, but sometimes women who don't shoot are hesitant to do so because they simply don't like the feel of recoil. This conversion will cut down on some of the more unpleasant parts of shooting, and this can be an inviting way to convince someone (man or woman) to come out and try shooting or the action shooting sports. This project can also be completely for purposes devoid of the competition realm, and moreover be designed as a way for someone to simply juice up a stock gun that they otherwise don't use, giving them something fun to shoot with their buddies in the backyard.

So what's the total cost of your DIY Open Glock? - the modifications you will be making should cost you about $850.00 at the higher end. This price does not include the cost of the stock G17/22. If you don't already own a Glock, I'd strongly suggest looking into a used Open 2011 or custom Open Glock if you're really wanting to get an Open gun. The price difference might not be as horrible as you expect if you have to buy the stock Glock on top of the price of the modification parts we'll be purchasing. This conversion is very much direct at those who have already spent some of their overall budget on a stock Glock.

What parts will I need to install/purchase? - The $850.00 I just mentioned will get you a new: trigger, firing pin spring kit, magwell, slide racker, RDS, threaded barrel, guide rod and recoil spring, and compensator. Please note, not all of these items are required to make the gun function as an Open gun, so you can save money as you go through your build by eliminating parts which are a luxury and not a necessity. These are also not all of the parts you could end up buying. What I've tried to do is bring together the parts I feel are most important and present that information to you based on my experience.

(Top: Open G17 Conversion, Bottom: Production G34)

Should I mount my optic on the slide or on a frame mount? -For the purposes of this build, put the optic on the slide to start. Not only is this cheaper for now, but it also keeps the optic where you're used to seeing your sights. In the future, if you decide to go with a full open setup, you can easily purchase a frame mount (if you decide you need one) that can accommodate the optic which you will buy for this project. While some people say you can't track the dot when it rides the slide, I haven't found that to be the case, the dot rises as I would expect and falls back to my point of aim as I would expect. With this said, there are certainly benefit to the frame mounted optic which we will discuss later.

(Slide Mounted JPoint)

Will I need a new holster or magazine pouches? - Based on which holsters you already own and which compensator you decide to go with, you might be able to make an Open Glock which still fits in standard holsters and use them until you decide you want to invest in a race holster (which can be quite pricey). A holster with an open muzzle-end that maintains the same profile as the Glock slide and a compensator which maintains the same profile as the Glock slide will both be required if you want your holster to still fit your Glock once your modifications are complete. The standard G-Code holsters are a good example of holster that will work. You won't need new magazine pouches until you decide for sure if you want to compete in Open.

(G-Code basic holster with open muzzle. Carver 4-Port Compensator)

Can I just buy the Jager Open Conversion kit? - Sure you can! It has most of the parts you need, but it doesn't necessarily save you money part for part and you can't pick and choose which manufacturer's parts you want. The difference in price from the Jager kit to the $850.00 budget we've created is that we are also purchasing a trigger, firing pin spring kit, magwell, and slide racker on top of the base parts. Remember, you don't need all these parts so choose what's best for you.

What are the risks to trying this? - Like anything in the world of modifying guns, there are risks to trying this project (which I take no responsibility for). It's important to mention that you might not be able to get the gun to function with a comp based on the ammo you use. You might break parts during installation or removal. You might lose reliability that you are accustomed to with your Glock. You might decide it was a bad idea and not like shooting with a red dot on your handgun, etc etc. But most importantly, there is the possibility that you are not familiar enough with the fit and function of the action of the weapon, and that you might end up seriously damaging the weapon or not assembling it correctly with the tolerances required for it to operate safely. Be sure to be safe while undertaking this project. If something doesn't seem right or feel right, don't try shooting it.

Frame Modifications

Step 1 - Frame stippling / Addition of Grip - This step is totally based on personal preference. I've found that shooting with a textured grip gives me far more control over the gun,specifically as my hands begin to sweat. We can add grip tape in key areas, add a grip sleeve, or stipple the frame to achieve the desired grip effect. Stippling the frame, in my opinion, produces the cleanest most professional looking results. Again, this modification is totally based on personal preference and is no way required as part of the build. Your comfort level with taking a hot-iron to your gun will also come into play here. While it doesn't take a whole lot of skill to produce a crude frame texturing, mastering a professional, clean stipple-job,will take practice.

(G17 with Stippling and undercut trigger guard)

Step 2 - Magwell installation - Once we've textured the frame (if we choose to do so), we can add on a magwell. In Open, the general rule is, the heavy the better in this department. The more mass you have, the more the weight keeps the gun from recoiling. However, if you own any Glock magwell already, there really isn't need to buy a new one for the purposes of this conversion. For example, I own a standard weight Dawson Ice Magwell which I use in IDPA ESP Class, so I can use that despite the fact that there are MANY better options for an Open gun,including the heavier version from Dawson. Brands to consider include Glockworx, SJC, Carver, Dawson, etc. Installation of most magwells is easy; you simply slide the adapter into the frame, secure it through the whole in the rear of the grip, and then attached the magwell via screws.

(Dawson Magwell riding on a G17. Screw attachment points highlighted)

Do I need to buy magazine basepads? - When using a magwell, depending on which make and model you choose, you might need to swap out the basepads on your magazines. For the purposes of this build, I'd suggest trying to find a magwell (like the Dawson) which doesn't require that you do so. In Open, you are going to want to take advantage of the higher magazine capacity allowed with the addition of some magazine extensions, but that's not really necessary right now. You can use factory mags until you make a more accurate decision on what we want to do in terms shooting Open. This will help save you some serious money; magazine extensions aren't cheap.

Edited October 16, 2012 by GorillaTactical

[GorillaTactical]

Frame Modifications Continued and the Transition to Slide Modifications

Step 3 - Trigger and Firing Pin Spring replacements- A key aspect of any competition gun is the trigger. A lightened trigger pull with limited pre-travel and no over-travel is key to really pushing the speed of the weapon and exploiting the weapon's accuracy at range. The choice of trigger here, much like the frame texturing, comes down in large part to personal preference. I like a trigger which has a very solid wall and a crisp breaking point. I don't like a lot of the Glock triggers out there that tout the claims of being super light, because for the most part,these triggers are like pulling through a big bit of pre-travel with no real trigger wall. Again, this is totally personal preference, but I've found a combination which I find to be extremely effective. The Haley Skimmer trigger with a lightened striker spring of 4.0lbs and lightened firing pin safety spring seems to be the best combination for what I'm looking for. Other triggers to consider include those from Glockworx, GlockTriggers, Vanek, Carver, etc. as well as simply just replacing a few springs on the factory trigger. The Firing Pin Spring is an interesting animal; make it too heavy and the trigger is stiff, make it too light and it might not ignite your primer. When choosing a weight for your FPS, I'd suggest testing several variations between 3.5-5.0 lbs and seeing what work for you. The addition of a lightened striker might be necessary depending on which spring/primers combination you are using. A lightened striker allows you to get more reliable ignition with a lighter spring because the spring has less mass to propel into the primer.

Step 4 - The Slide Racker - Most slide rackers mount in the dovetail of the rear sight, but you are going to need the dovetail for your red dot, so you will need a slide racker that mounts in a different position. The Tactical Supply Depot slide racker available through Brownells, is a cheap and effective slide racker which fits our restrictions on mounting. It is are placement end-plate with a racker attachment. You can install this part just as you would install the standard end plate on the slide (be sure the racker is facing the right direction based on which hand you fire with). The slide racker will allow you to rack the slide more effectively, especially once you have your optic mounted or if you ever decide to switch to a frame mounted optic.

(Tactical Supply Depot Slide Racker post installation on a G17 Slide)

Slide Modifications

Step 5 - Sight Removal - It's time now to install your red dot sight. First, you must remove the iron sights from the gun. You can keep the front sight on if you really want to (or don't have a Glock front sight tool), but removing it improves the look of the Open setup in my opinion, so I take mine off. To remove the rear sight, you won't need any special tools, just a small vice, a punch, and a hammer. If you have a polymer/rubber punch this would be a good option but you can also just tape a standard steal punch. Ideally, you don't want to damage your iron sights in case you have another application for them or want to put them back on this gun later. If you have an aftermarket metal sight that simply won't move, you might try using a torch to heat it first.

Step 6 - Red Dot Install - Now that you have removed your iron sights, you can install the adapter plate for you red dot. The proper way to install anything into a dovetail is to fit it, not just hammer it in. To fit the adapter to the dovetail you: attempt to install it, stop when it begins to bind, hammer it back out and file it lightly along the contacting edge (be sure not to change the angle of the dovetail), reinstall and repeat until the base can be lightly hammered into place. For more detailed instructions,

. In the case of some red dots, the JPoint from JP Enterprises included, there won't be a need to "fit" the adapter. Simply place it in the dovetail, tap it into place, and secure it will setscrews and loctite. The next step is to screw the red dot down and onto the adapter. Although there are many options out there for micro red dots, whatever you do, make sure to buy a reputable brand. The dot is going to have to withstand significant punishment as it will be cycling with the slide on every pull of the trigger. A sight of anything less than high quality will fail quickly in this application. Look at the Doctor Optics, CTS, JPoint, Deltapoint, Fastfire, RMR, etc. but note that the prices on these optics will vary. Consider buying an optic that you might have dual purpose for and that you can use in another application.

(looking through a 4MOA JPoint at an USPSA target approximately 5 feet away)

Step 7 - Aftermarket barrel - The next thing that you need to finish up your Open build, is an aftermarket barrel with threads. Lonewolf makes a fairly cost-effective option while KKM Precision makes a more "high quality" option. Be sure to choose a "drop in"barrel which doesn't require fitting to the slide unless you've had experience fitting barrels in the past or you plan on paying a smith to do it (remember,this is supposed to be out cheap conversion). Simply install your barrel as you would the factory barrel.

Step 8 - The Compensator - The threaded barrel is essential to the build,because the easiest way to compensate a factory Glock with a standard slide, is through the addition of a thread on comp. The compensator I chose was the Carver 4-Port(10 total ports) comp. I like the look of this comp and have found it to be extremely effective in terms of recoil reduction for slightly hotter than normal factory ammo (some spring tuning is required to get the gun to run with this comp and ammo selection). It's important to note that when selecting a comp, you should think about what loads you are normally going to be shooting. If you plan on shooting factory loads or minor power factor, then a less aggressive comp is what you are going to want; if you over-comp the gun, then you can have problems getting it to cycle. To install the comp, screw it on as far as you can without it bindingwith the slide and/or guide rod or hitting the end of your threads. Once you can't turn it anymore, back it off a rotation until it is aligned correctly with the slide. Lock the comp in place with red loctite or set screws (depending on which comp you've purchased). Another option is to use plumber's tape(teflon tape) on the threads. After a few wraps, you can screw the comp on and have it stick in place fairly well. This is a less permanent option but still effective - (credit to Glockman1000 of the Enos forums for the teflon trick).

(Carver 4 Port Comp with Drop in Barrel)

Step 9 - New Guide Rod Assembly - The last thing you will need for this conversion, is a new recoil spring (and guide rod assembly to save the hassle of messing with the stock one). Remember, we've added weight to the slide, making it harder for the weapon to cycle, as well as added a compensator, also making it harder for the weapon to cycle. Because of this, we need to drastically reduce the strength of the recoil spring. Somewhere between a 9-12# spring is normally what is needed for target loads and/or factory loads. If you are going to shoot hotter loads (to make major power factor in USPSA), consider a spring somewhere between 12-15#. The actual spring weight that works in your specific gun with your specific ammo is something that will have to be figured out at the range. Note that flat springs (like ISMI) are said to work better with captured guide rods than round coil springs (like Wolff). Another important point to make, is that you need to be sure that your weapon returns to battery with the lighter spring. A lot of times this can be an issue. Just keep an eye out for it and be aware. If your weapon doesn't return to battery the gun obviously won't function and can be a serious safety hazard.

Swapping out the springs in a G17 Open Conversion)

Step 10 - Tuning - Don't panic if when you go to the range, the gun won't cycle at first. Remember, you didn't build a combat gun with these modifications, you've built a race gun. You need to tune the gun and feed it different ammo with different spring combinations to see what works. Buy a few recoil springs at different weights. Try them all with the same ammo by loading one round in the magazine. Start with your heaviest spring and work your way towards your lightest. Fire the round, and when you find a spring/ammo combination which will consistently lock the slide to the rear, then you've found a spring which is light enough to allow the gun to cycle. Remember, you can always go lighter than the first spring which works (based on what you like to feel from the recoil impulse) but it will put additional stress on the slide and red dot. Keep in mind, once you find a spring that works with your ammo, you also need to test that spring further, being sure it can cycle reliably with fully loaded mags, from awkward positions etc,etc. Don't be eager to shoot fast at first. Take your time and analyze the gun and what's going on, especially the brass ejection patterns, they will tell you a great deal about how fast the slide is reciprocating.

I Don't Plan on Reloading, so what 9mm factory ammo should I use? - You should use the lightest Power Factor ammo that you can use while still having the gun reliably function (assuming you are shooting Minor and that the lighter PF feels "flattest" to you). I find that this is somewhere between 135-140 PF with my specific setup. I've had specific success with some of the 147grn Remington UMC FMJ ammo which comes in around 142-145 PF and is fairly easy to find (at least at my local Academy). I haven't been able to get anything below 130 PF to cycle with any sort of consistency in my Open Glock, your results may vary.

Conclusion:

What are the next modifications I can make if I decide to pursue Open division? -The next most important mod would be to get a frame mount for your optic. Putting the optic on a frame mount will take it away from where you're used to seeing your sights which will take practice to get used to, but also should allow you to track the dot more easily because it isn't moving with the slide through recoil. It will also take some of the stress off the optic. Pick up some extended basepads to increase your magazine capacity. Pick up some Open style magazine pouches and an Open holster if you don't have one already.

(Carver Custom Gun sporting a frame mount - Carver mount require no permanent modifications to your frame, but require modifications to your holster)

I hope everyone who tries this project is successful in their endeavors. Please feel free to comment and ask any questions you might have. I'm more than happy to attempt and answer anything in my ability and there are some far more knowledgeable individuals on this board who I'm sure can help. Although I have selected quite a few parts from Mr. Bobby Carver, the parts from other manufacturers, specifically SJC, are also top of the line, and used by many successful Open shooters who can run a gun faster than I.

Edited October 17, 2012 by GorillaTactical

[blueorison]

Great post, broski! Never heard of the teflon tape trick.

I use an MRD, but not on a Glock. Keep us updated on the MRD status; I've heard from owners of the MRD's of ***'s killed, and certain other mfg's MRD's that don't last forever on Open guns.

I can speak for certain that my slide-mounted MRD was killed by my platform. After bedding it with hot-glue, it now works as it should.

Edited October 16, 2012 by blueorison

[fuentesd99]

GREAT POST!!!!! This will be VERY helpful for some Glockers that want to go Open. I am already in the process of building one from my G22.

[vluc]

Or just slap a Burris Fastfire on one and shoot as is. Instant Open with factory or reloads..

[GorillaTactical]

Or just slap a Burris Fastfire on one and shoot as is. Instant Open with factory or reloads..

But is that really a true representation of Open? I personally don't think so. Although this conversion isn't either, I think it lands much closer to what an Open gun actually feels like (not necessarily just to shoot, but overall function - magwell, slide racker, etc). While I mentioned shooters doing this shouldn't be thinking they are going to win the national title with the gun, you also aren't at so serious of a handicap that you consistently get smoked at your local or regional matches. But that's all just MHO. If just dropping a microdot on on the slide works for you then by all means go for it.

Like I said in the OP:

Please note, not all of these items are required to make the gun function as an Open gun, so you can save money as you go through your build by eliminating parts which are a luxury and not a necessity. These are also not all of the parts you could end up buying. What I've tried to do is bring together the parts I feel are most important and present that information to you based on my experience

Edited October 16, 2012 by GorillaTactical

[Noximus03]

Just to add to this great write up, and make a clarification on a thing or two...maybe even throw an opinion out there.

Add- you can run your Glock open gun with factory rounds. It's more about the spring weights than anything else. Will the comp work as designed with factory loads? NO! BUT it will run reliably, and for the the most part fast.

It's also important to note that using a 4-port comp (or bigger) will change the way your gun acts with a major load. You will need to do some experimenting in order to find a good recipe that works not only for your set up, but for you as a shooter as well.

Opinion- this is a personal preference, but I don't like my red dot to be slide mounted. For me, more center of the gun is more accurate. That's not to say that my way is the best or only way, it's just the way I like it. As was said in this write up, Bobby Carver's mounting system doesn't require any modification to your gun, but you will need a modified holster (which Bobby provides at a very fair price).

Bottom line is this- if you plan to run USPSA open division, you will eventually need to change/upgrade your gear along with your load if your goal is to be more competitive in that division. Nice write up overall.

[Glockman1000]

Great post, broski! Never heard of the teflon tape trick.

Well, if you decide to use teflon tape, you would be #3. Since I & Gorilla Tactical have done it.

Call me cheap.

Great write up GT! Thanks for the props!

Here's my current mount.

The next one I may get is the 90 degree C-More version.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Glockman1000

[Storz]

Great write up, thanks!

[BoyGlock]

"...the 2011 would probably be the more "appropriate" choice for a pure Open build."

"...but then again, you aren't doing this conversion with the hopes to become the Open champion with the gun right?"

What a beautiful way of dousing off my ever-burning hopes and desires!lol!

[GorillaTactical]

"...the 2011 would probably be the more "appropriate" choice for a pure Open build."

"...but then again, you aren't doing this conversion with the hopes to become the Open champion with the gun right?"

What a beautiful way of dousing off my ever-burning hopes and desires!lol!

You can be the defiant one who beats everyone in Vegas with a DIY Glock Conversion

lol. In all seriousness, I think it's safe to say that we're on the same page...the shooter makes the gun, but at some point in the skill level ladder, having a smoother, faster, flatter gun does make a difference...and from what I've seen, my garage conversions just don't shoot quite as smooth, fast, or flat as something the guys at SJC, Carver, TTI, Salient, ZEV, etc. can produce....I still can't figure out why though

Edited October 24, 2012 by GorillaTactical

[fosters3]

Great post, broski! Never heard of the teflon tape trick.

Well, if you decide to use teflon tape, you would be #3. Since I & Gorilla Tactical have done it.

Call me cheap.

Great write up GT! Thanks for the props!

Here's my current mount.

The next one I may get is the 90 degree C-More version.

Who's mount are those?

[Unregistered]

I have a Glockworx Fulcrum trigger in my gen 4 Glock 17 and whilst it is nice and light... it feels quite mushy.

Any way to get that "wall" before a glass rod break?

Would the Haley Skimmer, or the Edge drop in sets give that 1911-esque feel?

Thanks for the write up!

[Noximus03]

I've had the Vogel edge, a Vanek, a Fulcrum Ultimate, and currently run a Caver modified trigger group. The simple answer is (unfortunately) no. You can come close enough that its just that.....close enough, but IMO...NOTHING anyone can ever do will be better than a 1911 trigger break/group. I wish someone could design something that would come even remotely close as I LOVE the 1911 trigger.....hmmm.....maybe that should be a summer project for me.....

[Unregistered]

I've had the Vogel edge, a Vanek, a Fulcrum Ultimate, and currently run a Caver modified trigger group. The simple answer is (unfortunately) no. You can come close enough that its just that.....close enough, but IMO...NOTHING anyone can ever do will be better than a 1911 trigger break/group. I wish someone could design something that would come even remotely close as I LOVE the 1911 trigger.....hmmm.....maybe that should be a summer project for me.....

Why did you pick the Carver modified over the Fulcrum? Or the other ones for that matter?

[Noximus03]

Out of all of them that I have tried, yes. I ran the Fulcrum in my Open gun for the better part of a year, and the Caver just feels better to me as a shooter. its still a little 'mushy', but the break feels cleaner. Just my opinion as a shooter. Results may vary from shooter to shooter.

[Glockman1000]

Who's mount are those?

A Japanese company called Freedom Art.

The C-More Version can be used for a MRD directly mounted to it or add the angle bracket for the C-More. Pretty versatile but very expensive.

[GorillaTactical]

I have a Glockworx Fulcrum trigger in my gen 4 Glock 17 and whilst it is nice and light... it feels quite mushy.

Any way to get that "wall" before a glass rod break?

Would the Haley Skimmer, or the Edge drop in sets give that 1911-esque feel?

Thanks for the write up!

The Skimmer produces a wall, the Edge does not IMHO. You can mess around with the Firing Pin spring and safety plunger and get a decent wall with a semi-smooth break, but NOT a crisp snappy break like on a 1911

[.40isthenew.45]

Nice write up.... it almost exactly documents what I did to my G35.

One question that I am struggling with is the comp. I am looking for a solution that will keep the dot in the window on my dovetail mounted fastfire.

Does anyone have any insight into a comp/commercial ammo combination that works in .40?

WWB 165 and 180 along with the Lone Wolf comp don't seem to be doing it...

[GorillaTactical]

One question that I am struggling with is the comp. I am looking for a solution that will keep the dot in the window on my dovetail mounted fastfire.

Does anyone have any insight into a comp/commercial ammo combination that works in .40?

WWB 165 and 180 along with the Lone Wolf comp don't seem to be doing it...

Is the gun not cycling with the comp/ammo combination or is just not mitigating recoil as much as you are wanting it to?

[.40isthenew.45]

Is the gun not cycling with the comp/ammo combination or is just not mitigating recoil as much as you are wanting it to?

It runs fine, cycling any of the loads I have tried so far.

If I understand the terms correctly, it is shooting very soft, but not flat. The muzzle rises enough during recoil that the dot appears to leave the window. Recoil isn't bad but I find myself waiting for the muzzle to come back down and the dot to reappear in the window.

[GorillaTactical]

It runs fine, cycling any of the loads I have tried so far.

If I understand the terms correctly, it is shooting very soft, but not flat. The muzzle rises enough during recoil that the dot appears to leave the window. Recoil isn't bad but I find myself waiting for the muzzle to come back down and the dot to reappear in the window.

I'm sure someone more knowledge with loading .40 can chime in regarding a load that might allow for a flatter gun, maybe even though it isn't as soft.........in the mean time, you can always try to go with a more aggressive .40cal comp from SJC or Carver, they both sell a heavy ported version of their comps that will most likely tame recoil more than the LW does (may require recoil spring alterations).

Remember too though, the dot is never really going to "stay in the window"....it's not like shooting a red dot on a rifle. (at least, this is my experience and also what some of the Open M's and GM's I know have suggested to me). Take a look at this video of the dot tracking out of the window on a 2011 with full-size cmore

Edited October 24, 2012 by GorillaTactical

[.40isthenew.45]

I'm sure someone more knowledge with loading .40 can chime in regarding a load that might allow for a flatter gun, maybe even though it isn't as soft.........in the mean time, you can always try to go with a more aggressive .40cal comp from SJC or Carver, they both sell a heavy ported version of their comps that will most likely tame recoil more than the LW does (may require recoil spring alterations).

Remember too though, the dot is never really going to "stay in the window"....it's not like shooting a red dot on a rifle. (at least, this is my experience and also what some of the Open M's and GM's I know have suggested to me). Take a look at this video of the dot tracking out of the window on a 2011 with full-size cmore

I have shot a borrowed .38 super Open gun with a sideways mounted CMore. It was a whole lot more like shooting my 22/45 than my G35 in terms of dot movement. I know I won't be able to duplicate that with factory ammo. What I am looking for, if it is out there, is a combination of factory load and comp that has worked well for others.

[Noximus03]

One question that would help in your answer is what kind of spring combo are you running. Generally, factory ammo doesn't provide the gas pressure needed to make a comp work as designed. The powder burns too fast. I ran factory ammo for the better part of a year in .40, and 9mm and just practiced ALOT. By doing that, I learned to feel my way through the recoil process enough to be an effective shooter.

I agree with GT, try a different comp. I know guys running SJC's and I personally run a Carver 3 port and having tested the Jäger and the LWD comps, the gun does feel different between the 4. Remember that when running a comp, the bigger comp it is, the more pressure it will take for the comp to work as designed. Hope the info helps you, but in all reality, to get your gun to run flatter/tamer you'll need to reload some ammo, or get some reloaded for you. Ask Doug Carden of DCAmmo (a forum dealer here) to send you some of his major PF rounds to test and see the difference, or find a local dealer for Atlanta arms and ammo and test a box. They both load their .40's to make major and it does make a big difference.

PS- also remember to run only JHP's or TMJ/CMJ's. you'll thank me later.

[BoyGlock]

" ..., the dot is never really going to "stay in the window"..."

+1

I tested comped 2011s and also observed their muzzle rise from afar. They flip like my glock open do. Mine is 9 maj w/ SJC 11 port comp. If I dont focus much on the dot Most of the time I fail to track the 2011 dot rising out of fov while in my glock I always do. Does this mean the 2011 flip is more snappy than my Glock its why i cannot track its dot as much as my glock's? Aside from the difference in grip angle and trigger, 2011s are heavier w/c tend to make it softer to shoot but not nevessarily lesser flip.