My M&P9

[Trident]

Your stock Max Lengths match what mine was for the 124's almost precisely. Your KKM, however, is roughly .06 deeper. Crazy.

I wonder if that is the factor that's leading to the variance in performance with that load, or if it's just a coincidence?

Not sure but I have tested all my loads with oak from 1.120 to 1.145 in .005 and seen no noticeable difference shooting 17 and 34 shot groups.

I even loaded the Hornady 124g at Hornady's recommended OAL of 1.069 and 1.130( for some OAL load consistency) and got a same overall size 3-4" group but tighter group with more than half of the 34 rounds touching in a 1.5-2" hole of 17 or so holes at the 1.069 but with only one test hard to make that call.

Going to do a second test today to confirm the previous Hornady results and hopefully the higher PF (135) MG 124 JHP loaded to 4.4g N320 as 4.2 gets me 125 PF.

Keep your eyes open for pressure signs in that 124/4.4 N320 load. My Federal SPP are definitely on the hairy edge of flattening at 4.25-4.3 grains of same, but they are the softest on the market and the 9mm web can take pretty impressive

pressures.

That is nuts that we're getting such drastically different velocities as well. I'd be willing to bet that the difference there also accounts for the greater part of our velocity difference as well.

What's your ES and SD for the 4.2 load? I found that the faster/hotter I push those projectiles with N320, the more consistent the velocities become.

ES60 and SD16, 77 & 22, 64 & 15, 69 & 16,

[Art Yeo]

[...]

Now heres where it gets even better:

I tested the MG 124g JHP @ 4.4g N320 @ 1.130 = 134PF and with 4 tests of 17 rounds, every test was in 3" groups w/ a total of 2-3 flyers @ 4-6". So it appears that increasing the PF from 125 to 135 brought the groups down from 4-6" to 3" and under.

[...]

Could this be an indication that with a flatter trajectory, you shoot better?

What distance were you shooting all these?

Edited September 15, 2012 by Art Yeo

[Art Yeo]

BTW, I have re-sent my M&P9 to S&W and re-described the issue. This time, I included the paper plates I posted in this thread to allow them to compare the stark difference.

Let's see what they say this time.

[Sin-ster]

Your stock Max Lengths match what mine was for the 124's almost precisely. Your KKM, however, is roughly .06 deeper. Crazy.

I wonder if that is the factor that's leading to the variance in performance with that load, or if it's just a coincidence?

Not sure but I have tested all my loads with oak from 1.120 to 1.145 in .005 and seen no noticeable difference shooting 17 and 34 shot groups.

I even loaded the Hornady 124g at Hornady's recommended OAL of 1.069 and 1.130( for some OAL load consistency) and got a same overall size 3-4" group but tighter group with more than half of the 34 rounds touching in a 1.5-2" hole of 17 or so holes at the 1.069 but with only one test hard to make that call.

Going to do a second test today to confirm the previous Hornady results and hopefully the higher PF (135) MG 124 JHP loaded to 4.4g N320 as 4.2 gets me 125 PF.

Keep your eyes open for pressure signs in that 124/4.4 N320 load. My Federal SPP are definitely on the hairy edge of flattening at 4.25-4.3 grains of same, but they are the softest on the market and the 9mm web can take pretty impressive

pressures.

That is nuts that we're getting such drastically different velocities as well. I'd be willing to bet that the difference there also accounts for the greater part of our velocity difference as well.

What's your ES and SD for the 4.2 load? I found that the faster/hotter I push those projectiles with N320, the more consistent the velocities become.

ES60 and SD16, 77 & 22, 64 & 15, 69 & 16,

That's notably higher ES than I get; the SD is higher, but not by a ton. Given, a greater spread between Hi and Lo coupled with a larger test pool (I generate off of 10 and 20 shots) will show those results, but still.

That coupled with the lower velocity makes me wonder just WTF is going on with the gun itself, as I assume you've made sure it's not the powder throw coming out of your press. I'm far from an expert in those types of workings with the gun, but it makes me wonder if I'm getting better lock up or if something is going on with the barrel itself-- the latter possibility being the least likely, considering the manufacturer.

There's obviously a lot of factors to consider here-- powder lots (should be pretty consistent, but I've had fast ones before), true projectile diameters (MG's run small, but not by much and don't fluctuate notably from lot to lot), our variations in OAL, possible crimp differences... and eleventy billion things that may be different about the guns.

If it weren't such a PITA to do, I'd ship you some of my ammo and see what the results were-- and vice versa!

[Trident]

[...]

Now heres where it gets even better:

I tested the MG 124g JHP @ 4.4g N320 @ 1.130 = 134PF and with 4 tests of 17 rounds, every test was in 3" groups w/ a total of 2-3 flyers @ 4-6". So it appears that increasing the PF from 125 to 135 brought the groups down from 4-6" to 3" and under.

[...]

Could this be an indication that with a flatter trajectory, you shoot better?

What distance were you shooting all these?

25 Yards

[Trident]

That's notably higher ES than I get; the SD is higher, but not by a ton. Given, a greater spread between Hi and Lo coupled with a larger test pool (I generate off of 10 and 20 shots) will show those results, but still.

If it weren't such a PITA to do, I'd ship you some of my ammo and see what the results were-- and vice versa!

What are you reloading with?

[Sin-ster]

What are you reloading with?

XL650, and a Redding Competition Seating Die. Everything else is factory Dillon, though I did clean up the hopper and powder funnel a little bit to facilitate more consistent throws.

I do sort match brass by headstamp, but I've discovered it's a VERY nominal difference (if there even is one) from brand to brand.

Federal SPP, from my Glock days. Highly doubt that would matter much, if at all, either.

[Trident]

What are you reloading with?

XL650, and a Redding Competition Seating Die. Everything else is factory Dillon, though I did clean up the hopper and powder funnel a little bit to facilitate more consistent throws.

I do sort match brass by headstamp, but I've discovered it's a VERY nominal difference (if there even is one) from brand to brand.

Federal SPP, from my Glock days. Highly doubt that would matter much, if at all, either.

Sounds about the same here. XL650 w/ Redding Comp Die, fully polished hopper and funnel assembly, double roller washers on shell plate, assorted mixed brass, Fed ( very soft with the 650 primer system) so now recently 10k of Winchester SPP but have found the Winchester is having problems with the anvil being higher than the cup causing some primer to shell plate interference loading problems. I'm going to try CCI next. Dillon says Winchester is having all sorts if issues.

I just spent a week with Manny so now going to do some more load data is trying to find an accurate plated bullet for QCB house training as required by range. I have 1000ea BB 147g and 124g HBRN and Bayou 124g and 147g. Your experience?

What are you seeing in OAL variances. I shoot for .003 either way. All depends on the de-primer and sizing die consistancy from shell to shell.

[cguy1177]

My thoughts.

After a long story ( along the lines here ) I'm divesting myself of the M&P line.

I freaking love the grip, the ergonomics and I know that most of them are good to go.

But, it almost seems luck of the draw. Tolerance stacking; too fine of design cutoffs;

inadequate QC, not sure. But it seems most are good, but if you get a bad one, good

night Gracey.

My pro started out with dead trigger issues, a front sight that was moveable by hand pressure,

and and occasional ejection issues. I loved the pistol so much I kept putting money

and time into it and after a while and several hundred dollars I still have a

pistol that I have a doubt about and can't group well over 12-15 yards.

I was actually holding out hope for the Apex Barsto ( now over how many months(years?) late?...)

or the Storm lake fitted barrel ( early August, right? ) but am done. And yes, it does do

better with 147gr, but the degree difference is absurd compared to other guns.

This is not an $1100 dollar and months long tuning production gun.

My pro, compact, FS9 and FS40 are going on the sales block dang it and I'm switching

platforms.

Again, I know several great shooters that have excellent results with the M&P, but

*for me* the consistency is not there and it seems luck of the draw.

I have had this M&P9 FS since I re-started shooting some 3-4 years ago. When I first had it, I didn't know better and I thot it was a great gun until I started acquiring 1911's, Beretta 92A1 and, of course, revolvers.

Don't get me wrong, I love S&W and the M&P platform but the inaccuracy is driving me nuts.

At 25ft, I am getting 4-5" group vs 1-2" group from my Beretta ... and 0.5-1" group with overlapping holes from a S&W 627 revolver. No such issues with my M&P45.

Same story at 50ft, with groupings adjusted wider. In fact, if you were to look at the paper plate, the M&P grouping looks like a shot gun discharge.

All the ammo were hand loaded MG (115gr and 124gr) for the 9mm pistols and the 357mag was LSWC 158gr Hunter's Supply. I have previously used factory loads and they were similar.

I think this is the last straw and I'm about to ditch this M&P ... until I started reading about Storm Lake, KKM ... and the upcoming Apex/Bar-Sto 3rd-party barrels.

In your opinion and experiences, do you think the current Storm Lake or KKM barrels will make any significant difference in improving the accuracy of the M&P9 ?

I have sent in the gun to S&W and it was returned to me without anything done to it except firing 5 rounds of 115gr FMJ and claiming it was within factory specs.

Any thots?

[Art Yeo]

[...]

This is not an $1100 dollar and months long tuning production gun.

My pro, compact, FS9 and FS40 are going on the sales block dang it and I'm switching

platforms.

So, which platform(s) are you heading to? Another striker-based platform or DA/SA ?

Edited September 22, 2012 by Art Yeo

[Art Yeo]

Well, it has been less than 2 weeks and my M&P9 is heading back to me from S&W.

It's way too fast ... I'm half expecting them to tell me the same story and same verse ... that the gun is within factory specs.

I'll let you guys know what they say when I get it.

For those who do not know, this is the 2nd time I have sent my M&P9 to them about the accuracy issue.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Art Yeo

[cguy1177]

Probably glock. reliable, accurate, tons of aftermarket etc.

Don't really like the grip, but shoot it ok. Might look at CZ

or something interesting for fun.

As long as it's totally reliable and accurate.

Though if S&W ever came out with a "gen 2", *and* it proved out,

I'd more than likely go back.

[...]

This is not an $1100 dollar and months long tuning production gun.

My pro, compact, FS9 and FS40 are going on the sales block dang it and I'm switching

platforms.

So, which platform(s) are heading to? Another striker-based platform or DA/SA ?

[redial]

Funny you mention the movable sights - I've had to Loctite 'em down when using any aftermarket sight on M&Ps. I'd love to see the accessories market for them grow to match that of the Glock's.

Mark

[Sin-ster]

Sounds about the same here. XL650 w/ Redding Comp Die, fully polished hopper and funnel assembly, double roller washers on shell plate, assorted mixed brass, Fed ( very soft with the 650 primer system) so now recently 10k of Winchester SPP but have found the Winchester is having problems with the anvil being higher than the cup causing some primer to shell plate interference loading problems. I'm going to try CCI next. Dillon says Winchester is having all sorts if issues.

I just spent a week with Manny so now going to do some more load data is trying to find an accurate plated bullet for QCB house training as required by range. I have 1000ea BB 147g and 124g HBRN and Bayou 124g and 147g. Your experience?

What are you seeing in OAL variances. I shoot for .003 either way. All depends on the de-primer and sizing die consistancy from shell to shell.

With sorted brass, Hornady One Shot and the previously discussed set up (that we both seem to share), I get an ES of .003 -- or .0015 in either direction. My SD is roughly .001, give or take. (If I'm running the press in a hurry to crank out practice rounds, the ES won't change by I will get some more play round-to-round and up the SD.)

When I get a stray Federal case in the mix, the ES can jump to .005-- so our figures are about the same for mixed brass.

Perhaps it's crimp, as it's the only thing we haven't discussed ammo-wise? I run .376 on my 9mm.

[Sin-ster]

Funny you mention the movable sights - I've had to Loctite 'em down when using any aftermarket sight on M&Ps. I'd love to see the accessories market for them grow to match that of the Glock's.

Mark

Same with me, on the Loctite with aftermarket sights. I have never shot one with factory sights actually, but I've had two people tell me that their factory front posts were moving.

My guns were Warren/Sevigny's, and the rears have never given me problems. I only apply Loctite to the set screw there, but as tight of a press fit as they have, I doubt they would move without it.

The front post on my main gun moved after about 40k rounds; I floated it in over some blue Loctite and it's been butter for the last 8-10k or so. I used it on the backup gun when first installing the new front sight, just as a precaution.

I guess these things truly are hit-or-miss and luck of the draw. Thank my stars, I've been lucky with both 9 Pro's, my 45 FS and my 9mm Shield. Let's hope the trend continues...

[Trident]

Sounds about the same here. XL650 w/ Redding Comp Die, fully polished hopper and funnel assembly, double roller washers on shell plate, assorted mixed brass, Fed ( very soft with the 650 primer system) so now recently 10k of Winchester SPP but have found the Winchester is having problems with the anvil being higher than the cup causing some primer to shell plate interference loading problems. I'm going to try CCI next. Dillon says Winchester is having all sorts if issues.

I just spent a week with Manny so now going to do some more load data is trying to find an accurate plated bullet for QCB house training as required by range. I have 1000ea BB 147g and 124g HBRN and Bayou 124g and 147g. Your experience?

What are you seeing in OAL variances. I shoot for .003 either way. All depends on the de-primer and sizing die consistancy from shell to shell.

With sorted brass, Hornady One Shot and the previously discussed set up (that we both seem to share), I get an ES of .003 -- or .0015 in either direction. My SD is roughly .001, give or take. (If I'm running the press in a hurry to crank out practice rounds, the ES won't change by I will get some more play round-to-round and up the SD.)

When I get a stray Federal case in the mix, the ES can jump to .005-- so our figures are about the same for mixed brass.

Perhaps it's crimp, as it's the only thing we haven't discussed ammo-wise? I run .376 on my 9mm.

It looks like the 147's are .376 and the 124's are .376-8

Of note is that I brought back some 147g match ammo loaded by Frank Garcia at Universal and they use nickle brass, CCI SPP and 3.2g Tight group with a .370-.371 crimp.

[Art Yeo]

Well, it has been less than 2 weeks and my M&P9 is heading back to me from S&W.

It's way too fast ... I'm half expecting them to tell me the same story and same verse ... that the gun is within factory specs.

I'll let you guys know what they say when I get it.

For those who do not know, this is the 2nd time I have sent my M&P9 to them about the accuracy issue.

Received the M&P9 today.

Pleasant surprise: they replaced the old barrel with the newly designed barrel that started shipping last April. This is the same barrel Hilton Yam (of the 10-8 Performance website fame) mentioned in his article comparing the old barrel and the new one.

There's only one thing to do now and that is to test the accuracy at the range. Will keep you guys updated soon.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Art Yeo

[Dieselvrr]

Received the M&P9 today.

Pleasant surprise: they replaced the old barrel with the newly designed barrel that started shipping last April. This is the same barrel Hilton Yam (of the 10-8 Performance website fame) mentioned in his article comparing the old barrel and the new one[/url].

There's only one thing to do now and that is to test the accuracy at the range. Will keep you guys updated soon.

Good Luck!

[Sin-ster]

Ugh, you had an old octagon barrel in there?

Whether it helps the accuracy or not... at least you know it doesn't have an obvious set of extra stress points...

[Art Yeo]

Well, it has been less than 2 weeks and my M&P9 is heading back to me from S&W.

It's way too fast ... I'm half expecting them to tell me the same story and same verse ... that the gun is within factory specs.

I'll let you guys know what they say when I get it.

For those who do not know, this is the 2nd time I have sent my M&P9 to them about the accuracy issue.

Received the M&P9 today.

Pleasant surprise: they replaced the old barrel with the newly designed barrel that started shipping last April. This is the same barrel Hilton Yam (of the 10-8 Performance website fame) mentioned in his article comparing the old barrel and the new one.

There's only one thing to do now and that is to test the accuracy at the range. Will keep you guys updated soon.

*********************************************************

**************** New Barrel is GOOD ***************

*********************************************************

At 25ft, using the newly designed barrel, I am getting overlapping holes in one single clover. In a 10 rd grouping, there were multiple shots that went through the same hole and those that did not, they formed a tight clover touching that hole. And, if I have a flier, it is less than 2" away from the clover. I'd say that this is, perhaps, bad news for KKM and Storm Lake but it is certainly good news for S&W. Based on this distance, I think they have fixed the issue. Using 4 paper plates and shooting around 10 rds per plate, I am getting results that are consistent with my other 9mm guns (Beretta Px4 FS, 92A1 and CZ 75 SP01).

I was shooting factory load 124gr AE and hand loads 124gr MG and 5gr of WST.

In my next range testing, I will shoot it at 50ft on a rest and and add the 115gr bullets into the mix to see how lighter bullets behave.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Art Yeo

[Trident]

Well, it has been less than 2 weeks and my M&P9 is heading back to me from S&W.

It's way too fast ... I'm half expecting them to tell me the same story and same verse ... that the gun is within factory specs.

I'll let you guys know what they say when I get it.

For those who do not know, this is the 2nd time I have sent my M&P9 to them about the accuracy issue.

Received the M&P9 today.

Pleasant surprise: they replaced the old barrel with the newly designed barrel that started shipping last April. This is the same barrel Hilton Yam (of the 10-8 Performance website fame) mentioned in his article comparing the old barrel and the new one.

There's only one thing to do now and that is to test the accuracy at the range. Will keep you guys updated soon.

*********************************************************

**************** New Barrel is GOOD ***************

*********************************************************

At 25ft, using the newly designed barrel, I am getting overlapping holes in one single clover. In a 10 rd grouping, there were multiple shots that went through the same hole and those that did not, they formed a tight clover touching that hole. And, if I have a flier, it is less than 2" away from the clover. I'd say that this is, perhaps, bad news for KKM and Storm Lake but it is certainly good news for S&W. Based on this distance, I think they have fixed the issue. Using 4 paper plates and shooting around 10 rds per plate, I am getting results that are consistent with my other 9mm guns (Beretta Px4 FS, 92A1 and CZ 75 SP01).

I was shooting factory load 124gr AE and hand loads 124gr MG and 5gr of WST.

In my next range testing, I will shoot it at 50ft on a rest and and add the 115gr bullets into the mix to see how lighter bullets behave.

Try at 25 yards, 75 feet At 7 yards, or 12 feet I would think anything will shoot within 2 inches. I have done all my testing at 25 yards freehand.

[Art Yeo]

[...] At 7 yards, or 12 feet I would think anything will shoot within 2 inches. [...]

Like I have said at the beginning of the thread, this is not true with the old barrel. Even at 25ft, it was pretty much random and that was why it was so appalling.

The new barrel eliminated the issue. I can now direct my thoughts at the POA and I have confidence where the POI will be and meaningful discussions can be conducted about it.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Art Yeo

[Art Yeo]

QUESTION:

Just a thought that came to mind...

for all of you, out there, who are having this accuracy issue with your M&P9, is anyone using a stock production gun that has not undergone any modification to any part of the pistol?

Edited September 28, 2012 by Art Yeo

[Trident]

Using the old barrel is a different problem all together.

Mine is a Stock barrel and no mods that would effect accuracy before switching to a KKM barrel. As soon as I went from a 125pf to 135pf my 124g loads improved greatly. I'm good now with both 124 and 147 which now shoot the same. .

Edited September 28, 2012 by Trident

[Art Yeo]

Using the old barrel is a different problem all together.

Mine is a Stock barrel and no mods that would effect accuracy before switching to a KKM barrel. As soon as I went from a 125pf to 135pf my 124g loads improved greatly. I'm good now with both 124 and 147 which now shoot the same. .

No spring, sear, trigger or any other mechanical changes?