Wish list of Rule changes

[Loves2Shoot]

Well not according to Glock. According to the manufacturer, there is not enough stored energy in the stock "pre-compressed" FP spring to activate the primer. How do you suggest that "any one" test this? I suppose you could remove the slide from the frame, insert a primed case in the chamber, then figure out position of the FP in the "starting" position (got a good way ? - use an armorer's plate and the depth probe on a caliper to measure the relative FP position?) , pull the FP back to this position and release it. Sounds like a YouTube project for you.... When you get it done, send us all the link.

As far as trigger weight and DA vs. SA - there are some revolvers out there with slick sub-5# pulls (I've got one) that fire reliably. Are you going to argue that my DA-Only revolver isn't DA?

IDPA doesn't have to have the technical ability to "class guns", as long as there is an ATF classification.

With that being said, the classification rules seem to work pretty well most of the time - with the XD being a possible exception.

Take the slide off and take the striker safety out. Note the location of the trigger bar where it loads the striker to, and pull the striker back, insert a wood dowel (better yet a aluminum rod the correct diameter) and then release the striker. You will see if you can believe Glock marketing for yourself.

The ATF classifications are based on what? It is obvious it isn't he mechanics of how they work. If S&W bribed the ATF for a false classification (the trigger sear pivots EXACTLY like the XD) then their blind acceptance of an inaccurate classification by function that goes against all the other action pistol sports makes even less sense for IDPA.

As far as your DA ONLY versus a DA/SA, who cares? You can pull the trigger as many times as you want, you don't have to rack the slide to cock the gun. The Glock has no multiple strike ability like your revolver (or a real DA auto.)

[robertbank]

You mean just below revolver participation. There were far more revolvers shot in both divisions at the world champs than DA/SA autos. I recall only two DA/SA guns total. One Sig, one third gen S&W. This is out of 385 some shooters.

Steve I wonder if this would change IF they allowed DA/SA to start cocked and locked? You could also include SA 1911's in SSP as well. Make SSP a Division for all stock pistols. Limit the modifications to a trigger job, sights and grips. Striker fired pistols would still dominate - sorry 1911 lovers but IMHO they would. All would start in the condition of readiness they likely would be carried in and all would have the same trigger pull for the first shot fired. ESP would be your modify your hearts out division within reason. CDP would be your .45acp division if indeed we still need to protect the 1911 design.

By allowing the DA/SA crowd to start hammer back they would at least be playing on the same level playground as the striker fired pistols. While you are at it remove the weight limit rules or at least make them same across the board for pistols. I know this is outside the box but it certainly would be interesting. If nothing else SSP Division would not appear to be a mirror image of IPSC Production Division.

Just throwing it out there.

Take Care

Bob

[DWFAN]

Not all da/sa pistols have a safety to start cocked and locked.

SSP should be all striker or hammer down pistols, ESP for cocked and locked or modified SSP.

[Chills1994]

does anybody actually shoot a "stock" gun in any competition?

[DWFAN]

My CZ75 Shadow is exactly how I picked it up from the FFL, and the exact way it was presented to IDPA for ssp approval. Does that count?

[freeidaho]

So, are you saying...

--Stock Auto 125K

--Stock Auto 165K

--Enhanced Auto 125K

--Enhanced Auto 165K

--Enhanced 1911 165K

--Stock Revolver 105K not moon clipped

--Enhanced Revolver 165K moon clipped

kr

Edited November 11, 2011 by freeidaho

[Chills1994]

DWFAN wrote:

My CZ75 Shadow is exactly how I picked it up from the FFL, and the exact way it was presented to IDPA for ssp approval. Does that count?

You didn't add any skateboard tape to it?

If so, WOW! cool, I'm impressed.

freeidaho wrote:

So, are you saying...

--Stock Auto 125K

--Stock Auto 165K

--Enhanced Auto 125K

--Enhanced Auto 165K

--Enhanced 1911 165K

--Stock Revolver 125K not moon clipped

--Enhanced Revolver 165K moon clipped

I guess that was directed at me, Ken?

No, that's not what I am saying at all. Sorry, if it came out that way.

You shoot some semi-auto pistol.... Glock 17, a Beretta 92D (a double action only model in 9mm) , some flavor of a 1911 in .45 ACP, and let's say a Beretta 96D (again a double action only model but in .40 Smith and Wesson this time).

Okay...you bring the Beretta 96D with you on match day. You buy just factory ammo for it which has been chrono'ed before. It makes major power factor...

So you get grouped in the MAJOR Semi-Auto Pistol Division (MAJSAP) and load up with you just 8 plus 1 in the gun (to level the playing field with or to the 1911's in .45 that will hold just 8+1)

The next match you show up, but this time you have reloads for your double action only Beretta 96D, and your reloads PF out at 132. So you load up 10+1 in the gun. You get grouped in the MINOR Semi-Auto Pistol Division (MINSAP).

You have a Smith and Wesson 686 six shot revolver in .357Mag/.38 Special. You load it up with .357 Magnum and shoot MAJOR Revolver (MAJREV).

Next month you come out with some bunny fart .38 Special loads and shoot MINREV.

Reload that wheelgun however you want. Cut the cylinder for moonclips..use Safariland Comp III's...shuck 'em by hand one at a time...whatever.

So basically, there will be four "divisions" total.

And just a slight thread drift...sorry, I am kinda anti-division, and anti-classification. I lean more towards the "run whatchya brung, shoot head's up" end of the spectrum. I don't really believe in "handicapping" shooters or somehow insulating shooters's scores from each other.

[DWFAN]

D'oh.. Not till last week.. Lol.

[Steve Koski]

So pretty much just run one division. Call it "Limited?" Maybe a separate division for optics. We could call it "Open." Hey, it's 1995 all over again.

[Jim Watson]

Steve I wonder if this would change IF they allowed DA/SA to start cocked and locked?

Not many you can do that with.

My CZ 75 has a cocked and locked capability as well as DA/SA but I have made a lot of SOs nervous by easing the hammer down for SSP or IPSC Prod.

If my P226 had a cocked and LOCKED capability I would sure use it and be glad to regroup it into ESP. Heck if the gunsmiths could make it SAO, I would be on it in a heartbeat.

[Chills1994]

Steve Koski wrote:

So pretty much just run one division. Call it "Limited?" Maybe a separate division for optics. We could call it "Open." Hey, it's 1995 all over again.

Normally, I do appreciate sarcasm, but not when someone is trying to put words into my mouth.

[COF]

So basically, there will be four "divisions" total.

Works for me

[Kali]

What would you guys like to see changed in the rules of IDPA?

Prizes like guns, etc awarded based on the merit of shooting instead of random drawing (luck). Depending on who shows up, it may reduce my chances of winning a prize, but the winners worked hard to be winners and they deserve the rewards. Maybe it might inspire other competitors to work harder. I know IDPA did it this way to take the emphasis off of it being a competition, but everyone knows it IS a competition.

Edited November 13, 2011 by Kali

[DWFAN]

How about a mandatory chrono at sanctioned matches?

[robertbank]

IDPA used the ATF's classification of DA and SA.

BS, every other sport classifies the pistols correctly together. Name one thing DA about the M&P? You can't because it isn't, and it moves the striker in the same fashion as the XD. The Glock moves it a tad further, but it is not DA either.

You can only fire the Glock, M$P and XD/XDM ONE WAY. There is no second hit capability. The guns can not be cocked without moving the slide or de-cocked. They are all SINGLE ACTION striker fired pistols.

Well you could always classify it on the basis of what the manufacturer calls it ie "DAO Striker fired pistol", hence it goes in SSP. The Xd series was quoted by Springfield as a SA pistol hence it goes in ESP.

No BS just visit the manufacturers website. As an aside the DAO only stems from the fact the striker is not fully set after racking the slide. Pulling the trigger completes it's rearward movement before the striker is released. Incidentally the XD series fully sets the striker prior to pulling the trigger hence the SA designation. Should the definition of SSP Division be reviewed as to what guns are allowed in the Division... I would say yes but currently the rules are what they are.

Take Care

Bob

Edited November 15, 2011 by robertbank

[robertbank]

Steve I wonder if this would change IF they allowed DA/SA to start cocked and locked?

Not many you can do that with.

My CZ 75 has a cocked and locked capability as well as DA/SA but I have made a lot of SOs nervous by easing the hammer down for SSP or IPSC Prod.

If my P226 had a cocked and LOCKED capability I would sure use it and be glad to regroup it into ESP. Heck if the gunsmiths could make it SAO, I would be on it in a heartbeat.

Jim when you decock your Sig you are reducing the trigger pull a bit from a fully down position just like my 75 D does. The test for DA is whether or not the mainspring is fully set when the slide is racked. The CZ's certainly aren't fully set. When you pull the trigger the hammer moves back slightly, with a good trigger job.... very slightly. This is very much like the M&P does and with a good trigger job even the M&P doesn't move much. The limitation of insisting on a hammer down position for DA/SA guns is exactly the same as IPSC Production Division. The difference is, IPSC has a 5# trigger pull requirement and the CZ Shadow rules Production Division because the striker fired guns have no advantage over the DA/SA guns on the first shot and loose badly on subsequent shots as the CZ reverts to a sub 3# single action pull after the first shot.

Contrast the above with USPA Production where striker fired pistols do very well due to the fact there is no trigger pull limitation as there is in IPSC Production. In IDPA land the striker fired Glock and M&P are winning in SSP Division now and the Division will within a very few years be essentially a striker fired division if nothing changes. Given the advantage the lighter guns have in our sport ESP and CDP may well see the same thing develop. For the most part Glocks and M&P's have been winning the US National pistol divisions, I suggest it will continue without a change in the rules.

Take Care

Bob

[rhgunguy]

How about not favoring Glock so much? "A Glock 34's slide hasn't been lightened, that is a 'factory feature' so it can ignore the no slide lightening cuts rule." In that case, my Shadow's weight and FLDC is a "factory feature" so why can't I ignore the rules? Either slide lightening cuts AND FLDCs from the factory are "factory features" or they are BOTH not. It also kinda irked me when the recoilmaster became legal because Gen4 Glocks use a similar system. Stock XDs should also be allowed in SSP.

While we are talking about equipment, how about a place for the most common pistol round used by LE in the US today? Sure, you can down-load .40 to 125, but that kind of violates the spirit of the game.

Sadly, many people use IDPA as cheap instruction which is just as bad as using USPSA as cheap instruction; at least most USPSA ROs don't promote that fiction the way many SOs I have seen do. Stop teaching people how to get killed by doing RWR. Or encouraging staying stationary behind "cover" during a gunfight. People need to know that the local IDPA match is a game and is no substitute for places like Thunder Ranch, LFI, etc...

[bigj45]

Changes to IDPA?????? The first thing I would change would be to make it a association with ELECTED officers in charge instead of it just being a business. Then the sport can become what the membership wants it to be.

[Chuckie45]

"1. Creat a tactical division in which those of us with duty guns that have lights on them can play, also allow lasers, red dots on the slide etc. Basically a division to test the current crop of new technology for carry guns. In this division allow guns to be loaded to capacity."

I like this idea. I think that enough people have invested in lazers, lights, and slide mounted red dots that it is practical to start an Open Division in IDPA. As long as it can be holsered in an IPDA aproved style of holster than its GTG. We could even let guns like Night Hawks T3 Comp play.

I know IDPA has stayed away from these things because it would up the cost to be competitive, but those people that don't want to pony up the cash don't have to shoot open, so it's a mute point.

[GForceLizard]

Magnets are not mag pouches, make them illegal.

Sorry wrong forum.

[Joe4d]

seperate guns by size and weight not by triggers. The scores just dont support this, we have striker fired guns winning CDP, and SSP and ESP scores are very close.

Scrap ESP and SSP, call it full size and compact. That way some actual carry guns will have a place to be competitive. COmpact would use SSP rules but have to fit in a one inch smaller box and have a lower weight limit.

Full size would use current ESP rules,

CDP,,, call it what it is, a protected division for single stack 1911 45's.

[John Z Sr]

Do away with ssr and esr as separate divisions, www revolver shooters are a small enough group already. Sucks that I went from ssr master to ESR unclassified even though I'm still shooting the same gun.

Reloads with retention shouldn't be required for revolvers, ever try getting a partial moon clip back into a cylinder?

Reload behind cover, I understand the concept, but there have been several courses of fire, that by design leave a revolver out in the open and we have to move several feet before gettingto cover and being able to start a reload. If it's a "tactical" game then there should not be rules in place that force you to hang out with an empty gun, kinda silly

Great point !!!

[motosapiens]

You mean just below revolver participation. There were far more revolvers shot in both divisions at the world champs than DA/SA autos. I recall only two DA/SA guns total. One Sig, one third gen S&W. This is out of 385 some shooters.

No CZ's ?

there might be more cz's in SSP if not for the striker-fired (single action imho) guns like glock and m&p.

i have a cz75 and an m&p, and for me the m&p is easier to shoot in a competitive venue. If there were a real DA/SA class where the cz was not at a disadvantage, I would shoot it more. Heck, I might bring two guns and shoot both divisions then. woot woot. The current split between esp and ssp doesn't make sense to me based on how the guns perform.

I would also like to see a compact division.

Mostly tho, I have no real complaints. I'd like it to remain different from uspsa, and also at least slightly more focused on real carry weapons.

[Loves2Shoot]

IDPA used the ATF's classification of DA and SA.

BS, every other sport classifies the pistols correctly together. Name one thing DA about the M&P? You can't because it isn't, and it moves the striker in the same fashion as the XD. The Glock moves it a tad further, but it is not DA either.

You can only fire the Glock, M$P and XD/XDM ONE WAY. There is no second hit capability. The guns can not be cocked without moving the slide or de-cocked. They are all SINGLE ACTION striker fired pistols.

Well you could always classify it on the basis of what the manufacturer calls it ie "DAO Striker fired pistol", hence it goes in SSP. The Xd series was quoted by Springfield as a SA pistol hence it goes in ESP.

No BS just visit the manufacturers website. As an aside the DAO only stems from the fact the striker is not fully set after racking the slide. Pulling the trigger completes it's rearward movement before the striker is released. Incidentally the XD series fully sets the striker prior to pulling the trigger hence the SA designation. Should the definition of SSP Division be reviewed as to what guns are allowed in the Division... I would say yes but currently the rules are what they are.

Take Care

Bob

Bob,

Put your finger on the cocked chamber indicator on a XD next time you can and dry fire it. That experience you might want to take another look at what you said. What a companies marketing people say is meaningless. Again, the M&P and XD/XDM triggers are functionally the same and it is ONLY if you believe the Glock marketing people (and IDPA) that there is not enough energy stored to ignite a primer.

It is obvious to every sport except IDPA that the Glock, M&P and XD are all striker fired pistols with a single hit capability. Once again where is the DOA in a single hitting striker fired pistol?

[mikegot38]

Require the SO to stop a shooter who loses his hearing protection unless the shooter intentionally knocks them off. As it is, the shooter must find and retrieve them and put them back on or keep shooting without them. If they are knocked into the back seat of a car in a stage, the shooter can choose to become deaf.