Wish list of Rule changes

[Steve Koski]

You mean just below revolver participation. There were far more revolvers shot in both divisions at the world champs than DA/SA autos. I recall only two DA/SA guns total. One Sig, one third gen S&W. This is out of 385 some shooters.

[DWFAN]

You mean just below revolver participation. There were far more revolvers shot in both divisions at the world champs than DA/SA autos. I recall only two DA/SA guns total. One Sig, one third gen S&W. This is out of 385 some shooters.

No CZ's ?

[Steve Koski]

There were a handfull, but I don't recall any starting hammer down. (My memory and observation skills are questionable though.)

[DWFAN]

Could make sense, but I would find it odd if there were NO CZ's at all.

I looked real quick for the equipment survey but didnt see it published yet. That wont identify what division they were shooting though either.

[dskinsler83]

Sig is usually ESP anyways unless the front strap is not checkered

[Steve Koski]

Huh?

[dskinsler83]

Most Sis Sauer pistols or all that I have seen fall into ESP catagory if I read the rules correctly

[Steve Koski]

Nearly all stock Sigs would fall into SSP unless you make some non-SSP legal modification. Factory checkering is legal in SSP. (Of course you CAN shoot any SSP legal gun in ESP if you want.)

[DWFAN]

So, does that make Glocks ESP only also because of their checkering ?

[Steve Koski]

Factory checkering is fine in SSP.

[Loves2Shoot]

I shouldn't get involved but .....

1) Get rid of the rule against round dumping, it can be hard to call correctly and half the time is self correcting.

2) Require fault lines to clearly define cover. It's to subjective to call fairly 100% of the time as it is now.

3) Move ALL striker fired pistols into ESP, leaving SSP for true double action pistols only.

4) Make ESP and CDP rules identical except for the following:

a) ESP 10 rd mag's, CDP 8rd mags

ESP 125 power factor, CDP 165 power factor

c) Approve all calibers for ESP and CDP with a .355" bore or larger

5) Raise the standards for becoming a SOI, and formalize the training to become a SO.

6) Create a clear route to become a DM other then HQ randoming selecting people (make it earnable), and properly monitor it with monthly updating.

7) Formalize the classification system, require the scores be submitted to HQ, and properly monitor and update the classification system monthly.

8) Only allow the difference in classification in different divsions to vary by one step except for DM's. If DM in one division, should be DM in all divisions.

9) Allow knee pads and cleats, these are safety items just like ear and eye protection.

10) Get rid of the point's system for the World Shoot.

I disagree with your request to move all striker fired pistols to ESP. The vast majority of guns in SSP nowadays are striker fired, you'd end up having SSP participation just above revolver instead of at the top of the chart as is now.

So, please tell why is the M&P NOT in the same division as the XD/XDM.

The reasoning that the Glock is somehow double action is laughable. If you slip the striker without pulling the trigger, it will go bang and anyone can test this, the whole "you cock it when you pull the trigger" is a ridiculous statement IF you know how they work and the energy that is stored in the striker when it is loaded.

There is nothing double action about a Glock or M&P. ESP should be based on enhancements (if it exists at all) and not action type, since IDPA doesn't have the technical ability to class guns that work the same together (M&P, Glock, XD/XDM.)

[Steve Koski]

IDPA used the ATF's classification of DA and SA.

[Loves2Shoot]

IDPA used the ATF's classification of DA and SA.

BS, every other sport classifies the pistols correctly together. Name one thing DA about the M&P? You can't because it isn't, and it moves the striker in the same fashion as the XD. The Glock moves it a tad further, but it is not DA either.

You can only fire the Glock, M$P and XD/XDM ONE WAY. There is no second hit capability. The guns can not be cocked without moving the slide or de-cocked. They are all SINGLE ACTION striker fired pistols.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Loves2Shoot

[Chills1994]

we could just go to two semi-auto pistol divisions...

call one major

call one minor

all the major pistols are loaded up 8+1, for max capacity. all the minor pistols would be loaded up to 10+1....regardless of action pistol type.

probably for safety's sake just make all 9mm's go into the Minor Pistol Division (MINPIS).

and then just classify revolvers by the same methodology, Major Revolver Division (MAJREV) and then Minor Revolver Division (MINREV)....regardless of how the wheel guns get reloaded.

[Chills1994]

as I understand it, I think it was a bit of marketing hype on Springfield Armory's part that when they turned whatever paperwork over to the ATF, Springfield Armory called it single action. And, IIRC, from some of the advertisements I saw in the gun periodicals, Springfield Armory even called it single action...or they used some wording like "the trigger pull is the same for each shot".

I thought one of those outfits was suing the other over their striker design. Maybe it was Glock suing S&W over the M&P.

(shrugs shoulders)

[Steve Koski]

IDPA used the ATF's classification of DA and SA.

BS, every other sport classifies the pistols correctly together.

That is what Robert Ray said. I agree that IDPA shouldn't use the ATF's classification, as it makes little/no sense here.

[spanky]

Kill the no dropping mags. No one does a tac load or RWR in a fight and if IDPA wants to be more "real life" then this needs to go.

[Loves2Shoot]

IDPA used the ATF's classification of DA and SA.

BS, every other sport classifies the pistols correctly together.

That is what Robert Ray said. I agree that IDPA shouldn't use the ATF's classification, as it makes little/no sense here.

They come off as completely incompetent from a technical standpoint not classifying the M&P in the same division as the XD/XDM. It is THEIR sport, they need not rely on some "supposed" ATF classification, no other sport does because ALL the other sports have people who can properly classify like type pistols.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Loves2Shoot

[Jim Watson]

Most Sis Sauer pistols or all that I have seen fall into ESP catagory if I read the rules correctly

I don't think you are because they sure don't.

I have a P226 with everything Bruce Gray was doing to them at the time except for an externally visible trigger stop, and it is still a SSP. Pity I can't shoot it as well as a CZ75 or Plastic M&P.

Ref action types.

1. Glock got categorized as equivalent to double action long before there was an IDPA, based on the completion of striker cocking by the trigger pull. This let them take a lot of government agency business away from S&W and Beretta with a poor but consistent trigger pull.

2. The original importers of what was then known as the HS2000 advertised it as single action equivalent. Apparently to give the idea that it would have a better pull than a Glock. Springfield just got stuck with that early claim and DOJ classification as SA when they renamed it XD.

3. The S&W Plastic M&P has a simple rocking sear that cams the striker about as much as a stock CZ75 hammer or an XD striker. Less after Burwell or Lee gets through with it. But S&W advertising, promotion, and appeal to brand loyalty got it on the DOJ books as equivalent to double action because of its long mushy stroke. They worked hard to get it listed that way and are reaping the benefits in department orders.

I doubt the Internet Outcry will influence IDPA to reclassify all those guns, either calling XD SSP (as I think they should) or setting up separate Divisions for striker fired mush action and true DA hammer guns.

There is a lot of stuff in the Internet Suggestion Boxes, even the "official" one on the IDPA board that will not get a second glance.

Things that make IDPA too much like IPSC or that will make IDPA into Something Else Entirely. (If we play by your rules, will you win?)

I'm just hoping for clarity, recommendations becoming rules or omitted, elimination of contradictions like Round Dumping vs Vickers Count, and a little tyding up. They are not going to rock the boat with major changes.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Jim Watson

[Chills1994]

Depends on what your definition of "major changes" is and what can be construed as "rocking the boat".

If I was a revolver shooter in the 2003/2004/2005 timeframe and learned about it getting split into two divisions, yeah, I might have considered that a "major change".

If I had a 5 inch barreled revolver, that was no longer legal, I might have considered that "rocking the boat".

Disallowing the el cheapo Uncle Mike's holsters with their dreaded belt loop light tunnels might have been seen by some people as a "major change"...."WHAT?! I gotta go spend money now on someone else's paddle holster???"

I do agree with you, though, anything that can be seen or interpreted as making it more like "Ip-sick" is gonna get shot down pretty quickly in my opinion. So, we all may be wanting "IPSC style speed reloads" to become legal, but I just don't see it happening.... so people will just continue dumping rounds in order to get to slide lock at some convenient time or location.

This is a little bit like throwing the baby out with the bath water, but if "IPSC style speed reloads" were to be allowed, I am thinking round dumping and the associated gnashing of teeth would go away.

[Jim Watson]

I was wounded by the Revolver Barrel Shortening Fiasco. I had three barrels re-sawn from 5" to 4" because of that mess.

A number of people quit shooting revolvers because of it, some just quit IDPA.

We don't need more of that.

[Steve Koski]

A handfull of guys around here were pretty pissed off about that too. A few quit. Some have come back.

It also cost the club a bunch of "good will" towards IDPA.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Steve Koski

[dskinsler83]

Well some of y'all are getting to hastey here lol...let's chill some...I apologize about the sig comment excuse me but dang y'all are touchy. IDPA needs some changes especially in the retarded mag retention policy for sure and some other small things because it is a game and should be fun to keep up the interest. Not looking for a so called IPSC JR as some have said just looking for a few changes.

[PEC-Memphis]

I shouldn't get involved but .....

1) Get rid of the rule against round dumping, it can be hard to call correctly and half the time is self correcting.

2) Require fault lines to clearly define cover. It's to subjective to call fairly 100% of the time as it is now.

3) Move ALL striker fired pistols into ESP, leaving SSP for true double action pistols only.

4) Make ESP and CDP rules identical except for the following:

a) ESP 10 rd mag's, CDP 8rd mags

ESP 125 power factor, CDP 165 power factor

c) Approve all calibers for ESP and CDP with a .355" bore or larger

5) Raise the standards for becoming a SOI, and formalize the training to become a SO.

6) Create a clear route to become a DM other then HQ randoming selecting people (make it earnable), and properly monitor it with monthly updating.

7) Formalize the classification system, require the scores be submitted to HQ, and properly monitor and update the classification system monthly.

8) Only allow the difference in classification in different divsions to vary by one step except for DM's. If DM in one division, should be DM in all divisions.

9) Allow knee pads and cleats, these are safety items just like ear and eye protection.

10) Get rid of the point's system for the World Shoot.

I disagree with your request to move all striker fired pistols to ESP. The vast majority of guns in SSP nowadays are striker fired, you'd end up having SSP participation just above revolver instead of at the top of the chart as is now.

So, please tell why is the M&P NOT in the same division as the XD/XDM.

The reasoning that the Glock is somehow double action is laughable. If you slip the striker without pulling the trigger, it will go bang and anyone can test this, the whole "you cock it when you pull the trigger" is a ridiculous statement IF you know how they work and the energy that is stored in the striker when it is loaded.

There is nothing double action about a Glock or M&P. ESP should be based on enhancements (if it exists at all) and not action type, since IDPA doesn't have the technical ability to class guns that work the same together (M&P, Glock, XD/XDM.)

Well not according to Glock. According to the manufacturer, there is not enough stored energy in the stock "pre-compressed" FP spring to activate the primer. How do you suggest that "any one" test this? I suppose you could remove the slide from the frame, insert a primed case in the chamber, then figure out position of the FP in the "starting" position (got a good way ? - use an armorer's plate and the depth probe on a caliper to measure the relative FP position?) , pull the FP back to this position and release it. Sounds like a YouTube project for you.... When you get it done, send us all the link.

As far as trigger weight and DA vs. SA - there are some revolvers out there with slick sub-5# pulls (I've got one) that fire reliably. Are you going to argue that my DA-Only revolver isn't DA?

IDPA doesn't have to have the technical ability to "class guns", as long as there is an ATF classification.

With that being said, the classification rules seem to work pretty well most of the time - with the XD being a possible exception.

[Chills1994]

I shoot a Beretta 92.

It starts out DA. Then goes to SA.

It took a while to get used to that.

But I don't use the DA trigger pull as an excuse or a crutch for my shooting scores or performance.

I don't lament NOT having a 9mm 1911 to shoot ESP with.

That's why I say just skip classifying semi-auto pistols by action type.... just go major power factor division and minor power factor division.