Hotchkiss Posted July 9, 2011 Author Share Posted July 9, 2011 I would say that division class names are just names and nothing more. The idea behind what is a tactial rifle evolves from what was allowed on the rifle. If we start to see detachable mag fed shotguns receive broad acceptance by LE and the military, I would think we might see some matches change equipment rules. Amen. I can shoot a round, drop a magazine, insert a new one, cock the gun and fire another shot faster than pros fan fire their guns, individually load 8-10 rounds and fire another shot. That doesn't make me anything special but it does show how obsolete the tube-fed shotgun is becoming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rep70 Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 I would say that division class names are just names and nothing more. The idea behind what is a tactial rifle evolves from what was allowed on the rifle. If we start to see detachable mag fed shotguns receive broad acceptance by LE and the military, I would think we might see some matches change equipment rules. Amen. I can shoot a round, drop a magazine, insert a new one, cock the gun and fire another shot faster than pros fan fire their guns, individually load 8-10 rounds and fire another shot. That doesn't make me anything special but it does show how obsolete the tube-fed shotgun is becoming. What is Fan Fire ? Don't know that I have heard that term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamma Slamma Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 I almost bought the Saiga but don't want to compete in open where it appears a big bank account can level the playing field of skill... not that I am all that skilled, but no way I will win against those who are skilled and have mucho money to invest in their guns. For now I have no desire to compete in anything except production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 I can shoot a round, drop a magazine, insert a new one, cock the gun and fire another shot faster than pros fan fire their guns, individually load 8-10 rounds and fire another shot. That doesn't make me anything special but it does show how obsolete the tube-fed shotgun is becoming. A tube gun has an advantage over a Saiga when very few rounds need to be reloaded or a slug needs to be selected. If a Saiga and Benelli both have 10 rounds and 2 rounds need to be reloaded - the Benelli will be faster. It will be interesting to see what happens to the Kel-Tec shotgun if it's any good for HM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 (edited) I almost bought the Saiga but don't want to compete in open where it appears a big bank account can level the playing field of skill... not that I am all that skilled, but no way I will win against those who are skilled and have mucho money to invest in their guns. For now I have no desire to compete in anything except production. I'm going to see how far I can go in late 2011 and in 2012 with only a red dot, polychoke, and magazine well. (Less than $200 invested on a $500 gun) I don't plan to hang with Clint Upchurch and Michael Voight but I'm sure it will do the job pretty well. Edited July 10, 2011 by DyNo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamma Slamma Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 I also looked at the keltec, but in general I am not a fan of anything first generation. In a year or three when they work out all the bugs I'll consider it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentG Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 I almost bought the Saiga but don't want to compete in open where it appears a big bank account can level the playing field of skill... not that I am all that skilled, but no way I will win against those who are skilled and have mucho money to invest in their guns. For now I have no desire to compete in anything except production. Your wrong about the bank account issue. A DIY Saiga can be done for a heck of a lot less than most new big name shotguns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21 shooter Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 I think it would be great to see a magazine fed shotgun, and I think LE would adopt it once it has shown to be reliable. For LE, being able to change from one type of shell to another, and do it quickly, would be a great advantage. For an individual who would like to have a shotgun with greater magazine capacity, this would be the ticket. Protecting the family and home from the zombies? This should do it. As to competition and states that still don't trust their citizens, it looks like we are stuck with that, at least for the short term. Maybe another election or two and that can be rectified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotchkiss Posted July 10, 2011 Author Share Posted July 10, 2011 I almost bought the Saiga but don't want to compete in open where it appears a big bank account can level the playing field of skill... not that I am all that skilled, but no way I will win against those who are skilled and have mucho money to invest in their guns. For now I have no desire to compete in anything except production. A Saiga 12 is what, $600.00. A Tromix re-build is what, $395.00? $995.00 for a ready to go 3Gun shotgun? That's not bad. 1/2 the price of a prepared Benelli. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdm74 Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 I almost bought the Saiga but don't want to compete in open where it appears a big bank account can level the playing field of skill... not that I am all that skilled, but no way I will win against those who are skilled and have mucho money to invest in their guns. For now I have no desire to compete in anything except production. A Saiga 12 is what, $600.00. A Tromix re-build is what, $395.00? $995.00 for a ready to go 3Gun shotgun? That's not bad. 1/2 the price of a prepared Benelli. He was most likely talking about the other two guns that would go along with the saiga in open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M ammo Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 It comes down to The M2, SLP, and the 930. Some Open folks run a saiga. I can't say I see Lots,, of any others. Like all other 3 Gun gear and guns, if it works, we will buy it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T Bacus Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 I believe he meant can fire, not fan fire... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamma Slamma Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 (edited) I almost bought the Saiga but don't want to compete in open where it appears a big bank account can level the playing field of skill... not that I am all that skilled, but no way I will win against those who are skilled and have mucho money to invest in their guns. For now I have no desire to compete in anything except production. Your wrong about the bank account issue. A DIY Saiga can be done for a heck of a lot less than most new big name shotguns. I don't think I am "wrong" since people in open division have guns they have sunk thousands of dollars into modding their firearms. I understand what you are saying completely, but when almost anything goes, people will invest in almost anything. I can't compete with that financially. I have two young kids that suck every spare penny. If I didn't buy ammo in bulk and sell off 90% of it and shoot off the 10% profit, I wouldn't have ammo to practice. Edited July 11, 2011 by Hamma Slamma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamma Slamma Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 (edited) I almost bought the Saiga but don't want to compete in open where it appears a big bank account can level the playing field of skill... not that I am all that skilled, but no way I will win against those who are skilled and have mucho money to invest in their guns. For now I have no desire to compete in anything except production. A Saiga 12 is what, $600.00. A Tromix re-build is what, $395.00? $995.00 for a ready to go 3Gun shotgun? That's not bad. 1/2 the price of a prepared Benelli. He was most likely talking about the other two guns that would go along with the saiga in open. Yes. I have yet to see a Saiga for $600. Infact I have never seen one in any local gun store (Chicago/Crook County area, maybe be some restriction). I never had a chance to hold and feel one until I recently went to Arkansas and did a tour of the numeours gun stores and pawn shops. One paw shape have 4 or 5 saigas, none of less than $700. A quick check of gunbroker shows the "going rate" for a new is also $700 plus shipping and FFL, sure if I shop around I could find one for less I am sure. I saw a guy on TV once with a 50 round drum for his Saiga that he claimed to be worth $5k. Claimed his shotgun was worth $3k and listed the numerous mods. I think it was Shooting Gallery or Shooting USA. But I was realy talking about the pistols worth $5k after mods and rifles worth as much or more with $2k optics. Edited July 11, 2011 by Hamma Slamma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentG Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 (edited) Well sorry for those late to the Saiga party. However my point is for whatever the going rate is for a gun you can check someplace like CSS and add up whatever level of conversion you want. Convert it yourself. There are online hand holding vidios and if ou can't use a dremel, hammer and screwdriver turn in your man card. I fully understand about the rest of the expense of 3 gun and shoot a relatively cheap Canyon Creek XD but do have about 3K in my JP rifle. I don't have kids so I have bit more disposable income, but I'm still just a blue colar type. Edited July 11, 2011 by tnek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentG Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 PS. The price of Saigas will come down in the next 6 months I bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdm74 Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 ...do you believe it'll be worth it to wait? Yes I do. I am eagerly awaiting delivery, hopefully this week. so, is it the benelli? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucky7 Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 I almost bought the Saiga but don't want to compete in open where it appears a big bank account can level the playing field of skill... not that I am all that skilled, but no way I will win against those who are skilled and have mucho money to invest in their guns. For now I have no desire to compete in anything except production. A Saiga 12 is what, $600.00. A Tromix re-build is what, $395.00? $995.00 for a ready to go 3Gun shotgun? That's not bad. 1/2 the price of a prepared Benelli. He was most likely talking about the other two guns that would go along with the saiga in open. Yes. I have yet to see a Saiga for $600. Infact I have never seen one in any local gun store (Chicago/Crook County area, maybe be some restriction). I never had a chance to hold and feel one until I recently went to Arkansas and did a tour of the numeours gun stores and pawn shops. One paw shape have 4 or 5 saigas, none of less than $700. A quick check of gunbroker shows the "going rate" for a new is also $700 plus shipping and FFL, sure if I shop around I could find one for less I am sure. I saw a guy on TV once with a 50 round drum for his Saiga that he claimed to be worth $5k. Claimed his shotgun was worth $3k and listed the numerous mods. I think it was Shooting Gallery or Shooting USA. But I was realy talking about the pistols worth $5k after mods and rifles worth as much or more with $2k optics. It's technically considered an assault weapon, and therefore illegal for sale in Cook county. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotchkiss Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 I almost bought the Saiga but don't want to compete in open where it appears a big bank account can level the playing field of skill... not that I am all that skilled, but no way I will win against those who are skilled and have mucho money to invest in their guns. For now I have no desire to compete in anything except production. A Saiga 12 is what, $600.00. A Tromix re-build is what, $395.00? $995.00 for a ready to go 3Gun shotgun? That's not bad. 1/2 the price of a prepared Benelli. He was most likely talking about the other two guns that would go along with the saiga in open. Yes. I have yet to see a Saiga for $600. Infact I have never seen one in any local gun store (Chicago/Crook County area, maybe be some restriction). I never had a chance to hold and feel one until I recently went to Arkansas and did a tour of the numeours gun stores and pawn shops. One paw shape have 4 or 5 saigas, none of less than $700. A quick check of gunbroker shows the "going rate" for a new is also $700 plus shipping and FFL, sure if I shop around I could find one for less I am sure. I saw a guy on TV once with a 50 round drum for his Saiga that he claimed to be worth $5k. Claimed his shotgun was worth $3k and listed the numerous mods. I think it was Shooting Gallery or Shooting USA. But I was realy talking about the pistols worth $5k after mods and rifles worth as much or more with $2k optics. A $600.00 NIB Saiga 12 is no huge find: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=229882039 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=236292599 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=230666326 There were A LOT cheaper what, 12-18 months ago and they will be again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotchkiss Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 PS. The price of Saigas will come down in the next 6 months I bet. I agree. My memory is kinda fuzzy but they were no more than $399.00 (including delivery) 12-18 months ago. It memory serves the lowest price I ever saw on an on-line auction was $299.00 (incl. S+H) and $249.00 (incl.S+H) for the .410 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamma Slamma Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 (edited) I almost bought the Saiga but don't want to compete in open where it appears a big bank account can level the playing field of skill... not that I am all that skilled, but no way I will win against those who are skilled and have mucho money to invest in their guns. For now I have no desire to compete in anything except production. A Saiga 12 is what, $600.00. A Tromix re-build is what, $395.00? $995.00 for a ready to go 3Gun shotgun? That's not bad. 1/2 the price of a prepared Benelli. He was most likely talking about the other two guns that would go along with the saiga in open. Yes. I have yet to see a Saiga for $600. Infact I have never seen one in any local gun store (Chicago/Crook County area, maybe be some restriction). I never had a chance to hold and feel one until I recently went to Arkansas and did a tour of the numeours gun stores and pawn shops. One paw shape have 4 or 5 saigas, none of less than $700. A quick check of gunbroker shows the "going rate" for a new is also $700 plus shipping and FFL, sure if I shop around I could find one for less I am sure. I saw a guy on TV once with a 50 round drum for his Saiga that he claimed to be worth $5k. Claimed his shotgun was worth $3k and listed the numerous mods. I think it was Shooting Gallery or Shooting USA. But I was realy talking about the pistols worth $5k after mods and rifles worth as much or more with $2k optics. A $600.00 NIB Saiga 12 is no huge find: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=229882039 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=236292599 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=230666326 There were A LOT cheaper what, 12-18 months ago and they will be again. I didn't say it was a mythical beast like a unicorn, I said the going rate or fair market value or other such term. Looked at gun broker, saw them going upwards of 900 in some ads, took a quick average in my head. Bam. I bet if you look harder you can find them cheaper. That's not the point however. Purchase price is only a small fraction of the end result in Open. At the end of the day $600 or $700 what's the point of arguing? Edited July 12, 2011 by Hamma Slamma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heckofagator Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 ...do you believe it'll be worth it to wait? Yes I do. I am eagerly awaiting delivery, hopefully this week. so, is it the benelli? looks like the cat might be outta the bag! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I think it would be great to see a magazine fed shotgun, and I think LE would adopt it once it has shown to be reliable. For LE, being able to change from one type of shell to another, and do it quickly, would be a great advantage. For an individual who would like to have a shotgun with greater magazine capacity, this would be the ticket. Protecting the family and home from the zombies? This should do it. As to competition and states that still don't trust their citizens, it looks like we are stuck with that, at least for the short term. Maybe another election or two and that can be rectified. For the most part outside of a few limited roles the shotgun itself is dead to le. They are usefull for breaching doors and shooting large animals with slugs but pretty much any other time most of us prefer a good carbine. For the game however a mag fed shotgun in open is the way to go in my opinion. I have beat shooters with far more skill than me that simply can't keep up with the reloading with their speed loaders. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotchkiss Posted July 13, 2011 Author Share Posted July 13, 2011 I almost bought the Saiga but don't want to compete in open where it appears a big bank account can level the playing field of skill... not that I am all that skilled, but no way I will win against those who are skilled and have mucho money to invest in their guns. For now I have no desire to compete in anything except production. A Saiga 12 is what, $600.00. A Tromix re-build is what, $395.00? $995.00 for a ready to go 3Gun shotgun? That's not bad. 1/2 the price of a prepared Benelli. He was most likely talking about the other two guns that would go along with the saiga in open. Yes. I have yet to see a Saiga for $600. Infact I have never seen one in any local gun store (Chicago/Crook County area, maybe be some restriction). I never had a chance to hold and feel one until I recently went to Arkansas and did a tour of the numeours gun stores and pawn shops. One paw shape have 4 or 5 saigas, none of less than $700. A quick check of gunbroker shows the "going rate" for a new is also $700 plus shipping and FFL, sure if I shop around I could find one for less I am sure. I saw a guy on TV once with a 50 round drum for his Saiga that he claimed to be worth $5k. Claimed his shotgun was worth $3k and listed the numerous mods. I think it was Shooting Gallery or Shooting USA. But I was realy talking about the pistols worth $5k after mods and rifles worth as much or more with $2k optics. A $600.00 NIB Saiga 12 is no huge find: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=229882039 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=236292599 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=230666326 There were A LOT cheaper what, 12-18 months ago and they will be again. I didn't say it was a mythical beast like a unicorn, I said the going rate or fair market value or other such term. Looked at gun broker, saw them going upwards of 900 in some ads, took a quick average in my head. Bam. I bet if you look harder you can find them cheaper. That's not the point however. Purchase price is only a small fraction of the end result in Open. At the end of the day $600 or $700 what's the point of arguing? I was simply replying to your "...I have yet to see a Saiga for $600..." quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff F Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I shoot a Remington 1100 tac-4 Not saying it is the perfect gun as there are lots of good ones out there. I will say that I have beat many local guys that try and run saiga's. Its like anything else, you have to hit what your shooting at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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