Bar-Sto Barrel from Apex Tactical preview pic

[ryan45kim]

what exactly are "so called gunsmith fit barrel"

[Quack]

what exactly are "so called gunsmith fit barrel"

Oversized barrels that need to be fit to the gun

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[ryan45kim]

I know what a gunsmith fit barrel is my question was a "so called gunsmith fit barrel" and the idea that a fitted barrel is no different then a drop in

[ltdmstr]

My point was that the barrel is only one piece that has to work with various other components of the pistol, and even starting with an oversize barrel that has to be fit does not correct the other issues. I have a drop in Storm Lake conversion barrel in an M&P and it locks the gun up solid. Hood width is also just about perfect fit. So starting with something that's oversized and having to fit everything isn't really going to improve on anything over the drop in barrel. You can call it gun smith fit, or whatever you want. I would just call it more work for nothing.

[ryan45kim]

Wow so according to you there is nothing you can do to increase the accuracy of the M&P. It has been my experience that accuracy is a result of consistency. The purpose of a oversized/gunsmith fit barrel or whatever you want to call them is to precisely fit the barrel hood to the slide so it always locks into the same position and also the bottom lugs to control the vertical lock up and timing of the barrel. By tightening these tolerances you increase the consistency of lockup, fix any timing issues with early unlocking, and increase the accuracy of the firearm. If these principles work with a 1911 please explain why they would not also apply to the M&P.

[ltdmstr]

Wow so according to you there is nothing you can do to increase the accuracy of the M&P.

Uh, that's not what I said. What I said was, I doubt the Bar-Sto barrel is going to be any better than the Storm Lake (or perhaps the KKM) drop in barrel. And with either one, there are issues with the gun that keep it from being as accurate as a 1911 or various other designs.

[ryan45kim]

I'll ask one last time what are the other issues you keep eluding to but never state

[ltdmstr]

Slide to frame fit is the biggest issue. I'm not sure what the proper terms are for some of the other parts, and don't really want to get into a long discussion on this. If the gunsmith fit barrel works for you, I'm glad. I'm fine with the Storm Lake drop in. I'd be happy to try both side by side in a ransom rest if anyone has a way to do that.

[ryan45kim]

I want to start by saying that my goal here is to find ways to improve my M&Ps and not to just argue. If you are talking about an open gun with a frame mounted optic then slide to frame fit is important but when we are talking about an iron sighted gun it is not. I’m not trying to say slide to frame fit means nothing on an iron sighted gun but as long as there is good lockup between the slide and barrel and consistent lockup between the barrel lug and the locking block you should have good accuracy regardless of slide to frame fit. If there are problems that need to be addressed with the M&P platform please state them instead of just saying they will never be a 1911.

[ltdmstr]

I'm not trying to argue either, but I respectfully disagree with the above statement. As for an M&P not being a 1911, that's really not the issue. I only mentioned the 1911 because that's an example of a design where you can build the entire firearm to extremely close tolerance and maximum performance. You can't do that with an M&P, Glock, etc. My original point was that the gunsmith fit barrel is not going to make this into a super accurate firearm and is probably not going to make it any more accurate than the drop in aftermarket barrel. And I'd be willing to test them to see if that's true.

[ryan45kim]

We are just not going to agree on this. I’ve seen far too many Glocks become sub 2” guns at 25 yards with a properly fit barrel (sorry don’t shoot many 50 yard groups). I remember reading about the history of 1911s and they were considered horribly inaccurate until the 50s when gunsmiths started building bullseye guns. Even though they could build accurate guns it took them several more years to figure out how to make them both accurate and reliable. The M&P has been around for 4 or 5 years; I’m not saying it will be the greatest platform ever produced but I do think it can be developed farther then it currently is.

[buddy_fuentes]

Fitting the barrel is one of the main things you can do to improve accuracy in any auto pistol. I have seen 1911's with a loose slide shoot extremely well. I've had knowledgeable gunsmiths tell me that a tight slide to frame fit would give you about 5% better accuracy. So, personally I think that a fitted barrel would be the logical step if you are trying to gain the best accuracy available for a particular pistol. It may not shoot like a s PPC gun, but it would help wring out the accuracy potential of you pistol. I'm sure you could send it to XYZ gunsmiths and get even more accuracy.

I saw a video yesterday on You Tube of Jerry Miculek shooting an M&P CORE, with optical sights. He stated that they had gone to a 1 in 10 twist barrel for accuracy. Maybe this is something to look into.

By the way, my 5" M&P Pro 9 mm shoots two and a half to three inch groups off the bench with almost anything. If I had inserts for my Ransom Rest, I bet test would prove it to be a 2" gun or less.

[ltdmstr]

Guess it all depends on what your expectations are. I don't consider 2" to be accurate. Maybe some people do. Getting back to the point of a gunsmith fit barrel for an M&P, I was questioning whether the fit of the Bar-Sto barrel would be any better than the fit of my Storm-Lake barrel or a KKM barrel, and whether there would be any noticeable difference in accuracy. I'd bet no on both.

[MarkCO]

At 25 Yards...

People who can "hold" a 2" group are fairly rare. Pistols, of any make, that can shoot a 1" group from a Ransom rest are pretty rare. Combo is a 3" group in most cases. So here we are trying to figure out accuracy issues from a platform with variation based on a ton a factors, by a population of shooters whose perception of accuracy differs even more, most of whom could not shoot a 3" 25 yard groups with a custom Clark.

[ltdmstr]

Exactly. So how much difference do you think that gunsmith fit barrel going to make on an M&P considering all of the above? Do you really think it's worth the time, effort, cost, and wait? Do you really think it's going to be better than a Storm Lake or a KKM?

[MarkCO]

Honestly, I don't know. Again at 25 yards, my G35s shot about 4" groups at 25 yards stock, with KKMs I got just over 3". With my fit Bar-Sto, I got under 2". My stock 9Pro shot about 10" groups, the StormLake 4" and the KKM under 3", but never under 2" (but close).

I do know that my freestyle hold from touch to break on the trigger on my M&P is under 1" at 25 yards. (Can be tested with a laser, and a good exercise to test technique and trigger issues). I am not sure that I am going to pay $100 more for the Bar-Sto now. A year ago, I would have.

[ryan45kim]

WOW 2” at 25 is not accurate. I’d love to see these real accurate guns you speak of.

[buddy_fuentes]

Over the years I've had a good many custom guns built and paid a pretty penny each time. I have and do own Baer's, Clark, Ngai, Wilson, EWG, Dawson, and a few others built by gunsmiths that are not well known. All shoot extremely well and are reliable on top of that. When have the gun built or ordering I never thought about the price of one option over the other. If a barrel was purchased for a custom and I wanted a particular brand, I bought it. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't make any difference if I spend $150 or $250 on a barrel if it makes me feel that it is a better product than the other. My last build was close to $2000 and I used a KKM barrel, less than $150, because a friend had a commander built with one and it shot like a laser.

Most of us cannot shoot to the potential of our firearms in practical use. Off a bench if your eyes can see the sights and the target the same way each time, you can shoot some pretty good groups, but the ole Ransom Rest is the best way I have found. I own a Ransom Rest and have tested many pistols and revolvers through the years. Most won't shoot anywhere near 1" at 25 yards unless you find the prefect load and all of the stars in the universe are aligned with Mars and Pluto.

So what I'm saying is it is your money and your gun, buy what makes you feel better and enjoy it. It may or may not meet your expectations, but you won't be sitting back saying I sure wish I had bought that xyz barrel instead of the cheap one.

Best of luck to you.

[ltdmstr]

WOW 2” at 25 is not accurate. I’d love to see these real accurate guns you speak of.

Well, I never really had a habit of saving targets. Only tested when asked to do so, and then typically passed the target along with the gun. But I did some digging and managed to find one. This was a .45 built on a Caspian frame and slide with a Nowlin barrel. Five shot group with a friends reloads (D&J 200g LWSC over Bullseye loaded on a Star Machine press), shot .628" at 25 yards. I would not consider that at all unusual for a well built 1911.

Edited February 9, 2013 by ltdmstr

[mcracco]

So what I'm saying is it is your money and your gun, buy what makes you feel better and enjoy it. It may or may not meet your expectations, but you won't be sitting back saying I sure wish I had bought that xyz barrel instead of the cheap one.

THAT, is what it is all about. Or at least should be.

ltdmstr; nice target.

[buddy_fuentes]

"Well, I never really had a habit of saving targets." Yeah, if you are going to save a target this would be the one to save, that is sweet! Was that hand held off a bench, Ransom, or free hand? At any rate that is an awesome group.

I've seen PPC shooters that shoot some fine off-hand groups at 50 yards, but they are truly few and far between.

I have a factory test target where one of my pistols shot a .63 or .68, can't remember, and the pistol is very accurate. I can't duplicate the group even with the same loads, but I'm sure happy with that gun.

[ltdmstr]

"Well, I never really had a habit of saving targets." Yeah, if you are going to save a target this would be the one to save, that is sweet! Was that hand held off a bench, Ransom, or free hand? At any rate that is an awesome group.

I've seen PPC shooters that shoot some fine off-hand groups at 50 yards, but they are truly few and far between.

I have a factory test target where one of my pistols shot a .63 or .68, can't remember, and the pistol is very accurate. I can't duplicate the group even with the same loads, but I'm sure happy with that gun.

That was in a rest. And it was the first and only group I shot with that particular pistol. The gun was built for a bullseye shooter who wanted a .45 that was under 1 inch at 25 yards. He was pretty happy with it.

Building an accurate 1911 is not that difficult if you start with good parts, understand how they work, and pay attention to what you're doing when you put it together.

Getting back to the M&P, I think buddy has it right. If you want to put a Bar-Sto barrel in your M&P, there's absolutely nothing wrong with doing that. And if it helps to know that the gun is every bit as accurate as can be, then it's probably worth it. I was just trying to say that the fit of the drop in barrels, or at least the one I got from Storm Lake, is pretty darn good. So I'm not sure the Bar-Sto is going to be any better in terms of improving accuracy. But it doesn't hurt to try.

[RH45]

WOW 2” at 25 is not accurate. I’d love to see these real accurate guns you speak of.

I don't consider 2" at 25 yards accurate either, but, in my experience, it doesn't usually get much better with any of the "plastic" guns. My guess is that when firing, they flex just enough to change the way the barrel is locked in to the slide, before the bullet exits.

[buddy_fuentes]

WOW 2” at 25 is not accurate. I’d love to see these real accurate guns you speak of.

I don't consider 2" at 25 yards accurate either, but, in my experience, it doesn't usually get much better with any of the "plastic" guns. My guess is that when firing, they flex just enough to change the way the barrel is locked in to the slide, before the bullet exits.

Do you really feel that the pistols, such as the Glock, flex? I've heard this before and feel if they really did flex, even a small amount, that a crack would occur in the frame eventually. I've seen several with well over a 150K rounds through them and have heard of one with over a 1/4 of a million rounds through it. Seems they would have cracked.

Have you seen some high speed photography or something else to show this? If you have and know where I could view it, I would appreciate the link.

Sorry for high-jacking the thread, but I've heard this before and really was curious of the answer.

b

[kend]

Do you really feel that the pistols, such as the Glock, flex?

Have you seen some high speed photography or something else to show this?

Absolutely. It's been shown on Top Shot numerous times. And other shows I've seen with high speed video. It's cool watching an M-14 flex and bend when fired. That's where accuracy comes in, setting up a rifle so the barrel vibrates the same every time. That's why different loads and bullets perform different in guns, they make the barrel vibrate different. Same with a pistol but other parts come into play as well.