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Draw times


ebg3

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Just wondering about draw times for some of the long-armed shooters out there. I'm 6'9" tall and have a fairly long reach and I think that may slow me down a bit. I was shooting the plate rack today and my fastest draw on an 8" plate at 12 yards was .84sec with SV Limited gun. Shooting buddy was quicker and had a .83 hit but was able to pull some mid .70's with misses. He's only 5'10" or so. I figure he was able to draw .15-.20 faster than me, regularly. It seems that no matter how hard I try, I just can't seem to draw/hit anything in the .7's. I do fire on full extension and just wondered how much my extra arm length slows me down. Any other long-armed shooters reading this?

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.84 on an 8 inch steel plate at 12 yards is pretty darn good whether you're short or tall. Your buddy's .7 draws that resulted in misses don't really mean much...I mean the name of the game is getting your hits. If you were hitting the same target at the same distance in 1 second consistently you'd be kicking your buddy's butt. I have a buddy who has very quick hands and he can easily get the gun out of the holster much quicker than I can, and every now and then he gets me in practice by pulling off a draw in the .7 to .8 range with a hit, but the other 90 percent of the time I have his number with my consistent 1 to 1.1 second draws that always result in hits.

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I'm just curious...not really trying to reach a specific goal. Even when I started shooting this game in 1997 and first achieved a sub second draw, I was never able to get in the .7's and kind of gave up on trying. Lately I've been shooting a lot of steel and looking at my draw times. Now, I'm interested in what limits draw speed and looking at arm length as a factor. Thanks for the feedback.

EG

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I think you may find that it's not just an issue of arm length but more the fact that we with longer arms also have a longer torso. This means the distance from your holster to your sight line is going to also be greater. Now add to that the fact that you are moving the sights out further from your face due to the long arms and times are bound to increase. The positive side, having those longer arms gets you out closer to the target.. :roflol: Really, the speed on the draw shold be the least of your worries...

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The key to the draw is consistency, not speed. :D

JT

I think I have to agree with this, but its sometimes a hard lesson to learn. Everyone wants to be fast, but the fastest are the most consistent.

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I need to push myself in practice to both become faster and more consistent, that's why I'm interested in what my speed limits are. The harder I push myself, the quicker my "natural" pace becomes. I'd rather have a consistent .85s draw than a consistent 1.0s draw. :D

I didn't start this thread to have a debate on practice techniques, I just wanted to get some feedback from other tall/long armed shooters. Thanks for the replies.

Eddie

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What is your technique?

What path does the gun take from holster to target? Does it come up the body, then press out along the line of sight to the target (the path would look like an inverted "L")? Or, does the gun make more of a straight diagonal line running from the holster to the point of full extension?

If the latter, then you may experience a bit of what I call "tuning fork" wobble...where you are trying to stop a weigh (gun) at the end of a lever (long arms).

You also may be slamming on the breaks to stop the gun at extension...giving a similar result.

Would you describe your draw stroke at speed as being smooth?

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I have to be totally relaxed to break 1 sec on the draw. If I have any tension, not so good.

Reminds me of a funny (to me anyway) story.

The other week I was on the timer. Shooter is shooting production with an HK. He pops a .91 draw on a 3 yard target. I was impressed and said "that's pretty sporty for a double action first shot!". He replied "I'm a professional" (sponsored by HK). Well, that kinda pissed me off so I decided I was gonna show him how an amature does it. :sight: I was determined I was gonna bust a .90. I make ready and get totally relaxed and the buzzer goes off. .92! Aaaarrrrggggg!

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What is your technique?

What path does the gun take from holster to target? Does it come up the body, then press out along the line of sight to the target (the path would look like an inverted "L")? Or, does the gun make more of a straight diagonal line running from the holster to the point of full extension?

If the latter, then you may experience a bit of what I call "tuning fork" wobble...where you are trying to stop a weigh (gun) at the end of a lever (long arms).

You also may be slamming on the breaks to stop the gun at extension...giving a similar result.

Would you describe your draw stroke at speed as being smooth?

My draw is up and out like an inverted "L". I'd say the draw is very smooth, consistent and mechanical. The other day when I hit a .84 on the plate, shot after shot would be .86-.90 but no matter how hard I tried I couldn't beat .84s. Until I can see a way to shave time, this seems to be my limit on a 8" plate at 12 yards.

I have noticed the wobble when drawing on steel beyond 20 yards, usually when I'm really gripping the gun.

Time to break out the video camera and see what's up. Thanks for the input.

Edited by Flexmoney
fix my typo
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What is your technique?

What path does the gun take from holster to target? Does it come up the body, then press out along the line of sight to the target (the path would look like an inverted "L")? Or, does the gun make more of a straight diagonal line running from the holster to the point of full extension?

If the latter, then you may experience a bit of what I call "tuning fork" wobble...where you are trying to stop a weigh (gun) at the end of a level (long arms).

You also may be slamming on the breaks to stop the gun at extension...giving a similar result.

Would you describe your draw stroke at speed as being smooth?

My draw is up and out like an inverted "L". I'd say the draw is very smooth, consistent and mechanical. The other day when I hit a .84 on the plate, shot after shot would be .86-.90 but no matter how hard I tried I couldn't beat .84s. Until I can see a way to shave time, this seems to be my limit on a 8" plate at 12 yards.

I have noticed the wobble when drawing on steel beyond 20 yards, usually when I'm really gripping the gun.

Time to break out the video camera and see what's up. Thanks for the input.

Sub 90's on your drill are awesome. I can see wanting to shave another 0.05 - 0.10 off for Steel Challenge. (it adds up)

Are you going on random for the timer? Maybe your buddy has your timing between "standby" and the "beep" down?

Be sure to listen for the start of the "b" in "beeeeeeep".

Wiggle your fingers and toes right before you are to draw...to make sure you aren't tensing your muscles.

Notice tension in your face...neck...shoulders. Does it build as the session goes on?

Do some draws with the eyes closed and then open them to see if your index is on...and if your point of aim is neutral.

Do some extra slow slo-motion draws...and in reverse, to see if you have any hitches you might notice.

Where does your weak-hand go on the beep? Where does it meet the gun?

Does your strong hand wrist have to break when you get your grip in the holster.

Are you having to fine tune the gun as you extend out to the target? What if you back up 3y...5y...7y... is you index still holding up or are you making little corrections?

Try to notice something different on your draw. And, when you do...explore that awareness. Then, try to notice a new thing. Repeat.

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I'm only 6'3" and can draw in similar times. While dry firing I can set my timer to a par time of .6 and get a good sight picture with the gun mounted right as the buzzer goes off. Can't shoot that fast as I have a 9lb double action trigger pull to prep, so I usually end up around the .9+ mark out of Production equipment.

IMO, any "disadvantage" you may have with regards to longer arms or a longer neurological pathway, is negligible and can't even be measured in the hundredths of a second.

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Practice this afternoon...

Trying to get ready for Area 6, SC, Va/MD...no Steel Challenge.

Good feed back Flex, those are things I try to notice whenever I practice.

As I posted earlier, I'm interested in finding my "speed limits" and it is confounding when the wall is hit and it seems impossible to speed up. This is actually what makes practice interesting. :)

I'm starting to think arm length isn't much of a factor but when I can get some video it'll be possible to compare the track/distance my gun travels vs. shooting buddys'. That's the next trial.

Again, thanks for the feedback.

Edited by ebg3
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Yeah, it just doesn't matter if arm length is a factor or not...cause you aren't gonna change that.

Good luck...and share what you notice!

For Steel Challenge, be sure to practice being setup (NPA) off target and index onto the draw target...as that is often the case.

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I had the opportunity to RO at a significant number of Tuesday Night Steel matches. There is one gentleman there, who is very tall with long arms. His draws were typically in the 1.3 seconds with an Open gun. He was an A class shooter. I shot A2 with him a few times also. This guy beats a lot of higher ranked shooters. The distance his arm travels is great. I am not sure if he would ever consistently break 1.3 seconds which makes it hard for him to move up via classifiers but his match ranking are always outstanding.

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Nerve speed travels at the speed of electricity, which is just shy of the speed of light. So claiming that your long nerves are slowing you down is good bar talk, but medical BS. :cheers:

I helped my draws tremendously when I took out all the extra movement that wasn't needed, and also start the stroke at the first hint of the Buuu in Beeep!

I also throw my arm sideways, not down, since it gives me a better grip, as I'm only moving sideways not back and then front.

Granted this is all production out of slow kydex, so I think a limited set up would be even faster.

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Ok, I have to echo what Flex said, and others. +1 for Proper technique and relaxation. Do your practice draws in fron to the mirror and watch your body. Do your best to reduce all unnecessary movement.

Obviously, you are doing something to get your draws to be that fast in the first place. Your holster really can make a huge difference too. Did I read you were both drawing out of the same type of gear? I think I was doing about 1 to 1.3 second on a 4" dot at 15 yards, not many, if any, under a second. I have a long way to go!

I went and shot with TG Reaper. I am taller (not real tall, about 6'2") than he is, by a fair amount, I have fairly long arms, and have to admit, he was kicking my rear every time. It must be an advantage to be shorter!

WG

Edited by Wild Gene
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  • 4 months later...

I think you may find that it's not just an issue of arm length but more the fact that we with longer arms also have a longer torso. This means the distance from your holster to your sight line is going to also be greater. Now add to that the fact that you are moving the sights out further from your face due to the long arms and times are bound to increase. The positive side, having those longer arms gets you out closer to the target.. :roflol: Really, the speed on the draw shold be the least of your worries...

The brain signal having a longer distance to travel is not a measurable factor. Mechanics of moving a longer limb a given distance is, though

Note that a gifted taller person can move very, very fast.

Examples: NBA athletes, men just around 6.5 to pushing 7 feet tall, some of whom who are LIGHTNING quick. The world's fastest sprinter, Usain Bolt, is 6'5".

Edited by GunBugBit
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Nerve speed travels at the speed of electricity, which is just shy of the speed of light. So claiming that your long nerves are slowing you down is good bar talk, but medical BS. :cheers:

Quite to the contrary. Nerve impulses do NOT travel at the speed of electricity, the nerve impulse is saltatory and every single synapse along the way (from ear to brain, around the brain down spinal cord to to arms muscles and back to brain)requires another electroCHEMICAL event to keep it moving.

You can not shorten your arms, but you may decrease your arm extension, if it works for you. If your arms are almost locked straight normally, you could shorten the extension perhaps 6"-8". So instead of almost straight, your arms will have more bend. Other problems could result, obviously.

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  • 5 months later...

Coming from a movement science background and still somewhat new to competitive shooting you seem to be flying, im lucky do get my first shot in at about 1.6 seconds for IDPA purposes. I would love to hover right around the 1 second mark.

The average person it takes about 130-180 milliseconds to respond to a stimulus, in this case the timer beep. So you are looking at about .2 seconds from when the timer beeps until you start to reach for your gun. then the rest of the time you are going through the draw stroke (which by now is almost automatic). you may have reached your physical limitations for this particular skill. Things such as anticipation, tension, stress, etc will all adversely affect your performance on this task, that is make you slower. Over the course of a match this could add up to a second to your total score in relation to other shooter that have shorter arms, but you can make that up easily by working on your transitions between targets, on your reloads, and in mental preparation for the stage's CoF.

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