Showdown

[Tom E]

Troy replied and said he has seen it setup both ways.

And that's why we have a problem. He's not capable of telling you how it's supposed to be done? Isn't steel challenge about consistency? Same stages set up the same way? A great non-decision.

[Nimitz]

when I emailed him about finger inside the trigger guard for rimfire starts he just said it was legal .... he didn't answer any of my other questions about this rule ....

It would sure be nice to find even one person in the USPSA leadership who gave a damn about Steel Challenge ..... I wish they'd just sell it and be done with it ....

[ZackJones]

Depending on who gets elected as president we may soon have someone in office that cares about it. Assuming it does happen we'll see changes for the better.

[bigtimelarry]

Eddie Wagner should buy it..

[photoracer]

Well, results from the double SC match weekend, July 4 and 5. In Showdown at Frederickburg on 7/5 I outshot the entire field with the open rimfire rifle. I was the only shooter who went under 10 seconds on stage time (9.90) including Todd Jarret (Limited 10.81 2nd fastest). They had it setup with markers in front of each box. I shot 2 from the left box and 3 from the right. Believe it or not I had an issue on the first run, for the first time I can remember I forgot to load my mags (all but one person on our squad was shooting 2 rimfires so we were running the stages pretty fast). Had to take 30 Sec on the first run. I was in a tight battle with a friend Don for both rimfire open divisions. Rather than being conservative when I got back to the line I went for it, shooting 2.41 from the left and, 2.67, 2.45, and 2.37 from the right. Not my personal best but decent under the pressure. Then I proceeded to blow Speed Option and fall behind. Clawed my way back to win rimfire rifle open 100.05 to 100.23. I set 3 personal bests with my newly built FrankenRuger pistol but still lost 97.41 to 103.65. Will do it again the weekend of August 1-2 if I am recovered from my cataract surgery on 7/16.

[Nimitz]

At the PA State Championship this weekend I had a talk with the MD about this and after the discussion the current rule (2013 provisional rulebook) seems very clear ..... "for stages like Outer Limits with multiple shooting positions one flag will be setup in the center of the stage."

Since there are only 2 stages with multiple shooting boxes, the phrase " .... for stages like Outer Limits ...." can only be refering to Showdown & therefore there should only be one flag in the center of the stage for it as well. (why they just didn't call out Showdown is beyond me ...)

DNROI's comment that he's " ... seen it both ways" is pretty poor & just shows how little HQ cares about SC. If this was a question about a USPSA rule do you think he would have brushed it aside so quickly? Doubtful.

Luckily, in this cse I don't think we need his oponion. Myabe those other clubs were using earlier rule books? When I got home this weekend & looked at mine & it was the 2009 rulebook .... it's what I got when I took over earlier this year & never thought about it ...

Edited October 4, 2015 by Nimitz

[ZackJones]

I will continue to set it up with cones in front of each box until such a time that a rule book is published that says exactly where the one or multiple cones go. I have a print out of the email from DNROI that I keep in my steel challenge binder and that's what I'll refer to if anyone challenges it at one of my matches.

[Nimitz]

Zach:

Section 5, rule 2.3 specifically says in bold letters "..... for stages with multiple shooting positions ..... the flag will be set in the center of the array ...". ????

I know what Troy's e-mail said but that looked like nothing more than an off-hand comment, he certainly didn't provide any actual clarification of the rule that we can all go by ....

[ZackJones]

Zach:

Section 5, rule 2.3 specifically says in bold letters "..... for stages with multiple shooting positions ..... the flag will be set in the center of the array ...". ????

I know what Troy's e-mail said but that looked like nothing more than an off-hand comment, he certainly didn't provide any actual clarification of the rule that we can all go by ....

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree . I don't take anything DNROI says as offhand comments.

[nasty618]

Hi all

 

If after three strings from the first box the shooter forgets to move to the other box for the remaining two strings and ROs do not correct him - is that a 30 second max penalty for (each) string shot incorrectly?  A re-shoot?  I could not find anything to this scenario on the forums or in the rules, other than the shooter's choice for the 5th string clause.  

 

Thanks in advance

[motosapiens]

10 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

Hi all

 

If after three strings from the first box the shooter forgets to move to the other box for the remaining two strings and ROs do not correct him - is that a 30 second max penalty for (each) string shot incorrectly?  A re-shoot?  I could not find anything to this scenario on the forums or in the rules, other than the shooter's choice for the 5th string clause.  

 

Thanks in advance

 

In general, any time the RO starts a shooter in the incorrect start position, that string must be re-shot. I would think that would apply to which box as well as to hand and body position.

[nasty618]

28 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

In general, any time the RO starts a shooter in the incorrect start position, that string must be re-shot. I would think that would apply to which box as well as to hand and body position.

 

Thank you! That was my general understanding as well, although i cant seem to find a rule that supports that.  I was told there was a rule putting the ownership of incorrect start position on the shooter, forfeiting the run (30 sec penalty)... but i cant seem to find that rule either

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, nasty618 said:

 

Thank you! That was my general understanding as well, although i cant seem to find a rule that supports that.  I was told there was a rule putting the ownership of incorrect start position on the shooter, forfeiting the run (30 sec penalty)... but i cant seem to find that rule either

On second thought, it can be helpful to read the rules. I only do steel as a fairly informal weeknight match our club puts on, so i'm just applying what I know of USPSA rules. Apparently steel challenge is different. here is a link to rulebook: https://uspsa.org/viewer/SCSA_Rule_Book.pdf

 

here is the appropriate rule. Now I know more than I did this morning.

 

5.2.4 A competitor not in the proper start position at the start signal will incur penalties. This includes competitors shooting the improper number of strings from the shooting boxes on Showdown. Competitors are required to shoot three strings from one box and two strings from the other shot in any combination. Failure to move between boxes after three strings have been shot from one shooting box shall incur 1 procedural penalty, per string, for each string shot in the wrong box. It is acceptable to shoot in the 2-2-1 shooting order if the competitor so chooses; however, 3/2 or 2/3 are acceptable sequences as well. See Section 7 for penalty information

[nasty618]

8 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

here is the appropriate rule. Now I know more than I did this morning.

 

5.2.4 A competitor not in the proper start position at the start signal will incur penalties. This includes competitors shooting the improper number of strings from the shooting boxes on Showdown. Competitors are required to shoot three strings from one box and two strings from the other shot in any combination. Failure to move between boxes after three strings have been shot from one shooting box shall incur 1 procedural penalty, per string, for each string shot in the wrong box. It is acceptable to shoot in the 2-2-1 shooting order if the competitor so chooses; however, 3/2 or 2/3 are acceptable sequences as well. See Section 7 for penalty information

 

You and I both. Thank you sir.

[ZackJones]

This happened at the 2015 World Shoot. Troy (DNROI and RM for the match) told the competitor to move and reshot the string from the proper box.

Additionally, RO’s are ENCOURAGED to remind competitors to move after shooting 3 strings from the first box. This is not considered coaching. A simple “time to move” works.

[Joe4d]

Shot this for the first time this week. Was talking about it with another guy who had shot it before but wasnt a super expert or anything , Was looking at what target to start on.  I was trying to judge which target was effectively bigger. The distant big square or close circle. Seems I decided side to side they were the same but the square was taller.. So figured on a  1234 order from left box.  However when I got to the line (stage had two aim stakes  I was only one in squad shooting rimfire handgun,,,) I noticed  #2 plate was nearly directly inline and above aiming stake.. So shot it. 2 1 4 3 from the left.. From the right box stake was inline  with 4, so shot it 4 3 2 1 ..
Looking at the drawing I see the boxes were probably not set up correctly.  Also IMO the rule is pretty clear it should be 1 aiming point.

I also noticed on smoke and hope my prefered order wasnt the same as the draw from holster guys.  First run I copied the better shooter,, 1243..  But second string noticed same thing,, I could be perfect inline with 2 aiming at the stake. So shot the rest 2 1 4 3

[bigdawgbeav]

13 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

Shot this for the first time this week. Was talking about it with another guy who had shot it before but wasnt a super expert or anything , Was looking at what target to start on.  I was trying to judge which target was effectively bigger. The distant big square or close circle. Seems I decided side to side they were the same but the square was taller.. So figured on a  1234 order from left box.  However when I got to the line (stage had two aim stakes  I was only one in squad shooting rimfire handgun,,,) I noticed  #2 plate was nearly directly inline and above aiming stake.. So shot it. 2 1 4 3 from the left.. From the right box stake was inline  with 4, so shot it 4 3 2 1 ..
Looking at the drawing I see the boxes were probably not set up correctly.  Also IMO the rule is pretty clear it should be 1 aiming point.

I also noticed on smoke and hope my prefered order wasnt the same as the draw from holster guys.  First run I copied the better shooter,, 1243..  But second string noticed same thing,, I could be perfect inline with 2 aiming at the stake. So shot the rest 2 1 4 3

Not sure what rule you were looking at in regards to aiming point... 8.2.3 is pretty clear:
8.2.3
In the Rimfire pistol, Rimfire rifle, and pistol caliber carbine matches, there will be an aiming point (marker, cone, flag, or sign) centered downrange directly in front of each shooting box 10’ away and a maximum of 2’ high. For Showdown and Outer Limits an aiming point will be placed in front of each shooting box. The competitor, while waiting for the start signal, must be pointing/aiming their gun at the aiming point with their finger off the trigger and the finger outside of the trigger guard. Each firearm may start with the hammer cocked and, if applicable, with the safety off.

 

As for Showdown order typically you see the order of 1-2-4-3-S from the left box and 4-3-2-1-S from the right (assuming the small plates are 2 and 3).  And yes, the boxes may have been a little off.  I have included screen grabs from a POV video I shot a number of years ago.  This is setup correctly...

[GKB]

Peak Time changes for SC-102 SHOWDOWN effective 03 Jan 2024.

 

CO (Carry Optics) changed to 9.75 sec from 10.00 sec.

 

All other Divisions remain unchanged for 2024.

REF:  USPSA BOD minutes 20230523 SCSA PST Adjustments 2024.pdf