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How fast can you push plated (Xtreme) bullets?


lucky strike

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I respectfully disagree with you on both counts, Chris, for two reasons:

1. I do not believe that jacketed bullets are, on the whole, more accurate than any type of cast bullets. I find it hard to believe that this could ever be the case when comparing quality cast bullets to jacketed. Every gun is different, but if I were asked to plunk down my money, I'd put the money on the cast bullet every time. Jacketed bullets have reached a level of manufacture that would probably have been unheard of just a few decades ago, and especially in rifle bullets at a quarter a piece, you can buy some pretty darn accurate jacketed bullets. That said, I think what every jacketed bullet manufacturer seeks is to equal the accuracy of a cast bullet, especially in a pistol. Your experience may be different, and theory does not always translate to reality, but in theory, a cast bullet should be more consistent and more accurate than any jacketed bullet. If your experience is different, I'd be interested to see your results, and I'd be even more interested in a scientific explanation as to why that'd be the case. I'm not saying you're wrong--you very well might be right on this. Theory would suggest otherwise, but theory doesn't put holes in targets.

2. The cost of production is irrelevant to what I'm willing to pay. Types of bullets are what economists call "substitutes." No, they're not perfect substitutes, and that has to be taken into consideration, and on that point, I agree with you. That said, for myself, and many of the shooters I see and meet, I cannot fathom how they could justify practicing with bullets that, at minimum, cost 1/5 more. That means 1/5 less practice, 1/5 fewer matches, and 1/5 less time behind the gun.

I'd love to see accuracy testing of moly bullets and see where the real numbers end up. I am confident that they will perform comparably with cast and jacketed bullets.

If I can find a video of someone else shooting the same stage with jacketed bullets, I'll provide it. I didn't upload it to youtube or I'd post it. I do think when you see that there's no realistic difference in smoke indoors, you'll conclude, as I have, that whatever smoke there is, it's not going to impair your match performance, especially not outside. I have considered using jacketed bullets for certain circumstances many times. Every time I've compared the dollars, though, it just doesn't make sense. More ammo means more shooting, and more shooting means more progress when it comes to my skills.

On the "C 1/4" away from the A zone" argument, my response is that the A zone is 6x11 inches. I know my load will hit the A-zone every time at any distance we'd find in a match. I'd put my money on it. And if you're good enough to put a bullet 1/4" into the C zone at 50 yards, you're good enough to move it into the A zone. That one point isn't going to make or break your match performance, either. There's a lot of things we work on to try to get more points and get faster in this sport, but I don't think that's among them.

I'd also bet on there being zero difference in "gunk" in your gun, and if any difference in smoke, so minimal that it'd not be worthy of discussion.

Paying more for something doesn't mean you get more. It does mean, with probability 1, that you pay more.

I'm not asking you to switch, either. I just think everybody should look critically at what they're loading and shooting because none of us have limitless resources, and for those of us who shoot a lot, ammo is the most expensive thing we buy for this sport. There's no magic bullet that is going to improve your shooting overnight. More of them probably will, though, and that's what this is about.

I resisted posting my first post and I'm really resisting posting a followup because I know you're confrontational on this forum, and so am I, and I'd rather keep the clashes off the forum and in PMs. That said, I think this is a discussion that this forum should have had a long time ago. Jacketed bullets are expensive. There are alternatives. They don't smoke like a freight train. They ARE cheaper, and available. If they're not for you, then so be it. But it seems like there's a whole lot of shooters out there who want to save money on bullets. Often, they try to do so by buying plated bullets. You're usually the first to point out to them why that's a bad decision, and I agree with you--the cost savings don't add up to much with plated. But they do with moly! And that's why I wanted to post this, even though I knew, before I did, that you wouldn't agree with me. That's fine. If we all agreed, we wouldn't need a forum...we'd be authors for a gun magazine instead.

That being said (and said well, I might add!), I would like to point out that I have shot a metric ton of plain lead bullets, and yes, I wouldn't have shot them if they weren't accurate, but yes, there is considerably more cleaning involved when shooting them. I have never shot moly, and have limited experience with plated. I personally just don't see the extra expense of the plated versus plain lead to be worth the cost. Being I shoot production with a 38 super and prodution with a 40, jacketed for the super, lead for the 40. Cheapest solutions...MG for the super, Space Coast bullets for the 40 (I can pick them up from the manufacturer when I'm down their way, cheaper, no shipping.).

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I have a friend that says moly bullets don't smoke... I hate practicing with him, especially indoors. Not sure what that cloud is but it looks like smoke to me. Not trying to zing twodownzero but from my experience they smoke.

All bullets smoke with the wrong powder. I've seen cast bullets smoke like a freight train, too.

I've shown this video on this forum many times. Watch it and tell me that my bullets smoke too much to shoot indoors:

Hopefully you conclude the same thing I have all along. Jacketed are a waste of money.

OH yea they were smoking big time. Look forword of the props smoke, smoke and more smoke. I will stick to plated. :cheers:

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Unfortunately, when I ask many people exactly what sort of accuracy they're getting out of their gun/ammo combination, few really know. Most have an answer like "oh, it'll do 2 or 3 inches at 25yds"....translated that means "I've never really shot groups with it, but when I shoot at a 15yd target, I can keep them all in the A-zone". I think know many of them would be surprised at the groups their setup is really capable of, and not in a good way.

Not surprising at all... I see this and worse. I can't tell you how many people don't know where their "group" should be at say 20 yds! As for testing from the bench.. personally I don't do this. Why? If I can get a tight group at 20 yds- why does it really matter how tight the group is from a bench... since I NEVER shoot from a bench anyway.

Back to the plated bullets.. I have tested loads with MG 147gr and Berrys 147gr many times with no noticeable differences in accuracy- defined as group size. This is thru a stock G34 in most cases. I'd likely use MG 147gr CMJ too if they didn't have a flat nose- because they support our sport so much. I am sure that a different gun, powder and/or loads may not yield similar results. But I've used Berrys in 38 Sp, .45 ACP with great results. For 9mm, .40, 38 sp and .45 ACP you'd almost have to be completely clueless to crimp so much (or not bell enough) to rip the plating... and I don't bell the brass much at all.

YMMV

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I respectfully disagree with you on both counts, Chris, for two reasons:

1. I do not believe that jacketed bullets are, on the whole, more accurate than any type of cast bullets. I find it hard to believe that this could ever be the case when comparing quality cast bullets to jacketed. Every gun is different, but if I were asked to plunk down my money, I'd put the money on the cast bullet every time. Jacketed bullets have reached a level of manufacture that would probably have been unheard of just a few decades ago, and especially in rifle bullets at a quarter a piece, you can buy some pretty darn accurate jacketed bullets. That said, I think what every jacketed bullet manufacturer seeks is to equal the accuracy of a cast bullet, especially in a pistol. Your experience may be different, and theory does not always translate to reality, but in theory, a cast bullet should be more consistent and more accurate than any jacketed bullet. If your experience is different, I'd be interested to see your results, and I'd be even more interested in a scientific explanation as to why that'd be the case. I'm not saying you're wrong--you very well might be right on this. Theory would suggest otherwise, but theory doesn't put holes in targets.

I stopped using cast bullets years ago, but I've easily shot over 100K of them...so I have more than a little experience using them, casting them, etc. In all of that, I could almost always get better accuracy with jacketed bullets than even the best cast bullets and the exceptions were usually revolvers. I tried different brands that I bought, cast my own in various shapes, different weights, sizing them differently, hardening the alloy, softening the alloy, various seating depths, powder choices, etc, etc, etc. The reason your theory doesn't equate is that it leaves out a lot of factors...velocity, fouling, individual guns (rifling depth) etc. Jacketed bullets are so good, and so consistent now, that the theory really isn't as significant as it would seem. Go weigh and measure ten of your molly bullets, and see what the range is...the numbers will vary considerably in most cases. The same thing happens with many/most plated (haven't personally tried all of them).

2. The cost of production is irrelevant to what I'm willing to pay. Types of bullets are what economists call "substitutes." No, they're not perfect substitutes, and that has to be taken into consideration, and on that point, I agree with you. That said, for myself, and many of the shooters I see and meet, I cannot fathom how they could justify practicing with bullets that, at minimum, cost 1/5 more. That means 1/5 less practice, 1/5 fewer matches, and 1/5 less time behind the gun.

I don't do any of those things 1/5th less. I use the best value, not lowest cost, for what I'm doing. Plated and moly won't get me the accuracy I want, so I pay enough to get that accuracy. There are far more expensive bullets than MG, PD or Zero (like Sierra, Hornady etc), but I don't bother buying them (although I did just buy 2K of .40 180 HAPs) because my current ammo is already better than I can hold. Many people shooting Bianchi (for example) do use the more expensive bullets...because it saves them points.

I'd love to see accuracy testing of moly bullets and see where the real numbers end up. I am confident that they will perform comparably with cast and jacketed bullets.

So you haven't done this yet, but you're already confident in them? :blink:

If I can find a video of someone else shooting the same stage with jacketed bullets, I'll provide it. I didn't upload it to youtube or I'd post it. I do think when you see that there's no realistic difference in smoke indoors, you'll conclude, as I have, that whatever smoke there is, it's not going to impair your match performance, especially not outside. I have considered using jacketed bullets for certain circumstances many times. Every time I've compared the dollars, though, it just doesn't make sense. More ammo means more shooting, and more shooting means more progress when it comes to my skills.

Don't bother with the video...I'm not really interested in someone else's ammo...just mine. I want as little smoke as possible, and get that with the combinations I'm using. While I know you can get relatively low smoke loads with moly, it requires the use of powders that aren't as good (in my opinon) for what I want. I'm not altering my load from what is softest, and most accurate, to get less smoke because I'm using a cheaper bullet.

On the "C 1/4" away from the A zone" argument, my response is that the A zone is 6x11 inches. I know my load will hit the A-zone every time at any distance we'd find in a match. I'd put my money on it. And if you're good enough to put a bullet 1/4" into the C zone at 50 yards, you're good enough to move it into the A zone. That one point isn't going to make or break your match performance, either. There's a lot of things we work on to try to get more points and get faster in this sport, but I don't think that's among them.

That's just silly. If I put a shot just inside the A line, and it turns into a C, because my ammo sucks, I'm losing points that I shouldn't. Saying "move it into the A-zone" sounds easy, but that's not how it works...I shouldn't have to move it more into the A-zone to guarantee an A because my ammo isn't accurate enough. One point might not, but do that 5 or 10 times over a big match, and it will make a difference...look at how many matches have been won/lost by less than that (many). See, that's just it, it's not working on getting more points, it's getting the points you should get because you lined up the sights and broke the shot properly.

I'd also bet on there being zero difference in "gunk" in your gun, and if any difference in smoke, so minimal that it'd not be worthy of discussion.

Paying more for something doesn't mean you get more. It does mean, with probability 1, that you pay more.

As far as I'm concerned, I am getting more. More accuracy, more powder choices, a cleaner gun, and more time to do other things besides load development.

I'm not asking you to switch, either. I just think everybody should look critically at what they're loading and shooting because none of us have limitless resources, and for those of us who shoot a lot, ammo is the most expensive thing we buy for this sport. There's no magic bullet that is going to improve your shooting overnight. More of them probably will, though, and that's what this is about.

I resisted posting my first post and I'm really resisting posting a followup because I know you're confrontational I'm only discussing, not confronting ;) on this forum, and so am I, and I'd rather keep the clashes off the forum and in PMs. That said, I think this is a discussion that this forum should have had a long time ago. Jacketed bullets are expensive. There are alternatives. They don't smoke like a freight train. They ARE cheaper, and available. If they're not for you, then so be it. But it seems like there's a whole lot of shooters out there who want to save money on bullets. Often, they try to do so by buying plated bullets. You're usually the first to point out to them why that's a bad decision, and I agree with you--the cost savings don't add up to much with plated. But they do with moly! And that's why I wanted to post this, even though I knew, before I did, that you wouldn't agree with me. That's fine. If we all agreed, we wouldn't need a forum...we'd be authors for a gun magazine instead.

Recently a friend, and fellow forum member, decided to try moly bullets as a way to save some money, since he wasn't going to shoot any less. He gave it a good try, and last week when we were on the phone he said (paraphras) "that was a huge waste of time, I'm going back to MG"...he couldn't get the accuracy, didn't like the smoke, and didn't want to spend more time trying to get them to work. In a similar light, another forum member just PM'd me about plated bullets. He tried and tried, but couldn't get them to shoot well in his guns....he asked me to sell him 200 MGs to try. Those are pretty common stories. unfortunately.

I think that about sums it up...I wouldn't tell someone not to try plated (or moly, or lead)...I didn't with either of the two folks I mentioned above. For some, it might work out fine, but for a lot of people, when they really seriously test and compare, they wind up going to, or back to, jacketed from one of the couple of suppliers we've talked about here. R,

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  • 2 weeks later...

Why is it that whenever anyone on this forum asks about plated bullets the naysayers start crying buy jacketed, shoot lead, jacket seperation, yadda-yadda

The man asked how fast you can push xtremes

I have used XTREME (formerly west coast, formerly Western Nevada for close to 30 years). They ARE the best plated bullet made. as to accuracy your pistol will vary but mine prefer xtreme plateds to Montana gold jacketed. I have had NO problems with jacket seperation in 9mm, 40, 38, 45acp from the mildest to some pretty hot loads.

Get sample packs from angela and shoot them ...IF you gun likes them use them ..without fear they will fall apart and ruin your gun.

OH and I don't have cheap guns, STI Steelmaster, Eagle, Baer 1911's in 45acp, Performance center Koenigs in 38 Super, etc. I have no issue shooting xtremes in any of them. AND my Glocks LOVE them!

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The last time I bought westcoast/xtreme, back to something else, etc,,,I threw half of them away, These bullets are so bad they have to keep changing the name to trick a new bunch of shooters into buying them. I had a Nowlin match 9mm barrel that hated lead, I also was using bulk Speer 124's what looked like moly cast bullets in it, these just wouldnt group after a few magazines,, So I tried plated, this was in the days before flat rate boxes and a local dealer stocked bulk Berry plated, I had tumbling issues with tthe 147's but 124's worked great, I used alot of Berry 155's in .40 and 240's in .44 magnum. In the .40 and .44 cast and jacketed grouped better, but the Berry's were good enough, I bought Westoast once, Extreme, and Rainers, my experiences were horrendous, they were so bad as to be unsafe, there was no way to adjust the crimp to avoid either over crimping or bullet setback, I started measuring them and the were all over the place in size. I liked Berry's and had good results with them but they wernt as good as jacketed, and their prices went through the roof, I run Precision Moly now, Manufacturers figured out the market would support much higher bullet prices, and as long as we keep paying these inflated prices companies will keep charging them.

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