frag316

Probably would have helped to be explicit about what kind of gun you have--I think a rifle using pistol mags (like GLOCK or 2011) is different from something like an MPX or Scorpion. Probably would have helped to explain where you have your reloads now and what handed you are, because your options are confusing to me without that explanation. I run a Scorpion, and I reload rifles with a beer can grip. That means my PCC mags are on my left side (I am right handed) with the bullets facing back. I personally felt this was the best option, because I'm going to reload any rifle with my left hand (under normal circumstances) and with a beer can grip. I've tried indexing rifle mags from chest and belt pouches like pistol mags and it just didn't work that well for me--not sure why, because indexing a pistol mag is easy as pie with my left hand (usually bullets out or forward, depending on the gun). Since it sounds like you're running GLOCK mags (or mags like them), it's probably best for you to treat those mags the same way you would treat any pistol magazine.

You could go with a Mechtech upper mounted on a 2011 frame.

Like I said, I'm just asking the question. I'm just unsure of the overall reasoning for the difference.

I shot my first PCC match last Saturday. I have a Trijicon RMR with the 12.5 MOA green triangle over the CZ Custom Shop low mount. I liked it a lot.

Well, you're comparing apples to oranges. Does any legal start position allow you to face downrange with a drawn and loaded pistol in your hands? (EDIT: Hint--8.2.3 A course of fire must never require or allow a competitor to touch or hold a handgun, loading device or ammunition after the “Standby” command and before the “Start Signal” (except for unavoidable touch-ing with the lower arms). Said rule is removed in the PCC Rules Addendum posted on the website.) I guess I don't find "low ready" to be that difficult to enforce consistently, since it starts with the muzzle at a 45-degreeish angle with the point of the bottom of the stock in the shoulder. And I did not read "stock on the belt" as "port arms." To military guys, "port arms" is very different from that ("FOUR INCHES FROM YOUR CHEST, PYLE!!! FOUR INCHES!!!"). I'm not sure you'd find any rifle drill that classifies "port arms" as the muzzle pointing anywhere but at an angle pointing over your left shoulder and the stock pointing at your right hip, with the rifle held parallel to the body. So that terminology doesn't work. If you want the stock of the gun touching the belt and the muzzle pointed downrange, then they need to draw a diagram and specify that as the default start position. I get that it's a provisional division. That's why I asked the question. That is absolutely not true. If you hold the gun tight to your body with the muzzle pointed at the ground, it won't break the 180. Nor will you sweep yourself, because the muzzle will also point over your muzzle side knee, but will not cross it. And I think table starts for everyone is NOT the way to solve the problem. I'd really be interested in hearing from someone like Troy on this, because I haven't seen much discussion on PCC other than "go out and shoot it" from anyone in the USPSA leadership.

Why not? The default position for starts with a PCC is low ready. If the muzzle is pointed at the ground, it shouldn't be a problem. Why is the stock on the belt? That makes no sense to me. Oh, sure--difficult to keep wrists above shoulders when you're holding onto a gun with two hands.

So I shot my first PCC match yesterday (22 Oct 16), which featured two or three uprange starts, including the classifier. When I first looked at the proposed rules/best practices document, it explicitly stated "no uprange starts," or words to that effect. After shooting the match, my question is "why?" Intellectually, I understand why--you have a loaded gun that's not in a holster, so the most safe way of dealing with uprange starts is to not allow them. Having done movement around people with loaded guns as part of my military background--including a drill that looks a lot like an uprange start--I don't know that I feel there's enough difference between a loaded PCC and a holstered pistol starting uprange to warrant a change to the start position. As long as a competitor doesn't swing the gun to his/her shoulder until they're past perpendicular to the side berm/wall--much like a pistol competitor doesn't start their draw until their holster is perpendicular to the side berm/wall--they won't break the 180 and (more importantly) should not sweep a spectator or an RO. Am I missing something here? I'm not married to the idea of uprange starts, I'm just trying to understand the rationale.

I shot my first PCC match yesterday, using a Scorpion Evo with a dual-illum 12.5 minute green triangle RMR. I personally thought it worked great, and didn't really have any issues with it jumping around. I used the CZ Custom Shop RMR mount, because it'll let me cowitness the irons, if I need to.

Did you move the grip forward and try that for the mag release? I ran into the same problem until I moved it.

I picked up one with the faux can and absolutely love it after putting about 160 rounds thru it. Couple of questions: 1) Anyone know what mag pouches are a good fit for the Scorpion? I was looking at the G-Code Softshell Scorpions (cheaper than a TACO), but wasn't sure whether I should get the pistol version or the rifle version. 2) I've heard there are folks working on basepads and/or extenders. Any words on this? 3) Best trigger kit--what are the options, prices, and opinions?

image.png How is the diagram, and the red line, different from behind the forward point of the hip bone? It isn't, really, but the diagram is designed to give everyone a visual reference for something the ROs had to poke people to find before. As it was administered on the day I shot SSN, the ROs basically looked at folks before the first stage. If they looked close, they took the person/people aside and made a closer inspection of the diagram and the competitor. I think that happened to one person in my squad (not me).

I'm on board with this too. I rely on what I see and hear, and while I may decide not to utter "Stop" at one moment in time doesn't mean that I don't do it a split second later, when something has changed and tells me that's the prudent course of action...... (Taking a break to get back to the original point of the post.) And that's primarily my point. Will I stop everyone who slips and falls? No. I think it's an RO's responsibility to stop someone who is in jeopardy of not being able to continue safely or if the RO believes the competitor may have lost control of the gun. Competitive equity takes a back seat to safety. If I had a doubt in my mind and didn't stop the competitor and then something happened later that could have been prevented by stopping the competitor, I'd feel horrible--especially if someone got further injured or injured a spectator and I could have prevented it. Now, if a guy slips and falls on his fourth point of contact and gets back up and I don't have that moment of doubt? Keep shooting, sparky--I hope you salvage your run and make up for it later. At least you'll have a good story to tell at lunch with your buds. It's really about whether I feel comfortable with the safe conduct of a course of fire subsequent to a fall. Again, the worst outcome is that the competitor gets a reshoot and doesn't biff it the second time around. Is competitive equity really that important? It's important, but safety is overriding. Your story about completing a motorcycle race with a torn ACL is not really germane to the conversation, because we're talking about completely different sets of rules and circumstances. The fact that you've not seen the situation in running thousands of competitors is also not germane. All circumstances vary wildly, and the RO has the responsibility to maintain safety.

*shrugs* Look, so I used "conceive" instead of "imagine." Get over it. I gave an example or two a couple of items above, so I figured you'd read them. If you still can't or won't IMAGINE them because you've run thousands of competitors, then I don't see the point in continuing the discussion, because you have decided you haven't seen a situation where you might stop someone for anything that's not DQ-able or a forbidden action or what have you. Guys tweak knees and twist ankles all the time, and I personally wouldn't want them to try to continue unless I could verify they were physically able to do so. I might think they lost control of the gun or something and be determined to be wrong after I say "stop." So they get a reshoot, which apparently messes with competitive equity, which is apparently more important than the competitor's health or admitting an RO might have thought something happened that didn't. I have a friend who was running a competitor who biffed it in a big way and he stopped her because he wasn't sure she'd retained control of the gun. She had, so she got a reshoot. Big flippin' deal--she got to reshoot the stage and didn't have to eat a stage with a poor time because the RO wanted to make sure the competitor was safe when she ate gravel. How's that? [emoji849] Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

*shrugs* That's fine. If you can't conceive it, I don't think there's a point in continuing the conversation. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I suppose that's all well and good, but how do you determine when "they need to be stopped?" What's your criteria? I have mine and am comfortable with them, but I'd be interested in hearing yours.