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So I've found that the Glock 30sf is probably the perfect fit for my hand. I love the fatter grip beacuse it allows me to get more support hand on the gun. I'd like to see if I can grow the grip on my 9mm and .40 Glocks to mimic the G30sf's dimensions. Anyone try this? Initial thoughts include layers of tape but I'm not sure how durable that would be. Thanks, Eric

When I first starting training the CoC grippers the "Trainer" was challenging for a set of three. I could barely close the #1 more than once or twice per hand per set. I'm currently doing sets of three with the #2 now. As an IT geek with smallish hands the CoC grippers have helped the health of my hands considerably. And, in combination with bringing my elbows out to drive my hands onto the gun, I'm finding that my shooting is improving too.

Quick update and a question... Well, I've evolved my grip yet again and I think this time (for sure) I've got it. I went back to applying the support hand very tight and around the strong hand but I brought my elbows out and concentrated on driving the support hand into the gun. The result has been a very strong grip that stays planted even when my hands feel dry. I love it. The sights seem to be tracking consistently and I'm getting better and better and keeping good (enough) groups at speed. I'm still using the stock sights as well. While I've learned to track them ok, I'm finding that they leave a lot to be desired when it comes to taking a more precise shot (because the front sight is HUGE). I've hit a bit of an interesting challenge though. I normally spend a lot of my range time shooting as fast I can while keeping my shots on a set target (say a 4" circle at 7 yards). Doing this is helping me find the front sight and see as much as I need to see in order to call the next shot. I think though I have subconsciously developed corrective action to the muzzle rise (i.e. a flinch) during faster fire in order to bring the sights back on target quicker. It's like I've figured out the timing of the gun and have developed the downward push to initiate right after the shot breaks at speed. If I take up the trigger but pause before breaking the shot, I'll flinch. As a result, when I slow down and work on taking more precise shots (say hitting a 1" sticker at 10 yards) I have to really concentrate to avoid a flinch. I have to force myself to hit the breakpoint in the trigger, pause, and then gradually increase the pressure until the shot breaks while keeping my front sight on target. After strings of faster fire this sometimes takes me a bit to adjust to slower fire in order to keep respectable groups at distance (i.e. 2" at 10 yards). Anyone else deal with this? Would it be beneficial to move to a gun with a rolling break (DAO or LEM perhaps)? Random thoughts... 1. WSF rocks. It's cleaner and I like it better than Titegroup. I don't see myself going back. 2. MG bullets are puuuuuurty and appear to be made with better QC than the PD bullets I was using prior. They're very consistent in shape and weight. 3. 115gr factory ammo feels soft compared to 4.3gr of TG or 5.1gr of WSF under a 124gr bullet. I'm not sure if my ammo is loaded to a higher power-factor or not but whenever I try out someone else's factory ammo, it feels weak.

I had kind of an off day today. I don't know if I was just too tired or what but I had trouble keeping a good focus on the front sight. I didn't run the Burkett timing drills either. What I sometimes do is load up 10 rounds in a magazine and increase the pace of my shooting through the magazine until I either reach my limit or run out. I do this at 5, 7 and 10 yards. Then I'll run some slower, concentrated fire at 10 and 15 yards, followed by faster fire at 5 yards (strings of 3 to 5 shots usually). This is where I start to lose the sights. If I just grip it and rip it as fast as I can at close range I tend to have somewhat of a loose focus. I sometimes think it's because I shift my awareness from the sights to a concerted effort to run the trigger and keep a consistent grip. In other words, the front sight is no longer dictating the speed at which I shoot but rather my ability to run the trigger is. Another (rambling) point...I still haven't found a consistent way to run the trigger. At slower speeds (.5 sec/splits on up) I ride the reset; faster than that and I think I end up slapping or just rolling through the trigger in its entirety. I originally learned (in my only training class) to reset and prep the trigger during recoil but I've gotten away from that. So now, Flex...are you gonna tell me what YOU see at speed? When you are running .2 sec/splits are you actually calling each shot? Is it even possible to visually ensure the sights are aligned or do you press the shot and then determine - after it breaks - whether or not you were on target?

Check out these oddballs. I really have liked PD's customer support but I may try a different company on my next order.

Great feedback, considering that I'm learning to relax my body's natural tendency to want to tense up and flinch when I break a shot. I'm getting to the point now where I no longer have any low-right fliers because I'm learning to see the front sight on the target as I break the shot. I can't yet say that I'm consistently calling each and every shot but I usually am able to tell when I miss a shot. I also had fun running what I guess you could call acceptable accuracy today. I had a target that had five, independent target areas that were probably 3"x5" ellipticals. My goal when shooting was to keep my shots inside those targets, regardless of the distance. I started at 5 yards worked my way back to 10 yards. As the distance increased, my split times would of course grow a bit but my groups were fairly consistent. I guess this brings me to my next question: what exactly do you see when you're running at say .20 to .25 second splits? How do you describe your sight picture? For me, I'd say the sights are a blur. I see the front sight driving up with each shot and then dropping back down but I certainly don't get a snapshot clear front sight picture before each shot breaks. Rather, I get an approximate relationship between front and rear right as I'm breaking the next shot. This probably means I'm exceeding my current limit. Speaking of limits, I need to get a shot timer to see if I can learn where I'm at. I've been doing a pretty good job of letting the front sight dictate when my next shot breaks but I'll occasionally try and push myself to see if I can grow. I'm still really enjoying shooting. I need to pick up a second G19 though so I can have one for carry and one for abuse. I'm getting tired of having to clean my gun so frequently...

My biggest gains in the last two weeks have come in the form of learning to relax during the shot. I'm moving past my tendency to flinch during slow shots and am starting to see a little better accuracy at 15 yards. I'm also starting to see the limitations that are offered with the stock Glock sights. The front sight is so wide that it's tough to really lock onto a smaller target at 15 yards on out. Since my POI is behind the sight I almost have to use them like XS sights are used and cover the intended target. Also - and related to this thread - I'm continuing to develop my grip strength, which is benefiting my shooting. When I first decided to start training my grip I could barely close a CoC #1 gripper. Just the other night I was able to do a set of 3 reps on the #2 gripper (after a set of 12 reps on the #1.5 gripper).

Hope no one minds that I'm treating this thread like a blog, but I'm making great progress in my shooting. I put another 125 rounds through my Glock. A few additional discoveries: 1. Bringing my support hand onto the gun by contacting the grip first and then wrapping my support hand fingers over the strong hand fingers is the way to go for me. I "feel" more like I'm forming a balanced, two-handed grip rather than trying to pinch, roll, 60/40, cam the wrist, etc, etc. For me it seems to be easier just to bring the hand on, wrap the fingers around, and note that I'm surrounding the gun in a balanced matter. 2. Biggest accomplishment in my shooting career - I'm tracking the sights now. I'm seeing the front sight shoot up as the shot breaks, stop at the top, and then drop back down. Depending on how hard I grip with each hand the front sight will either drop back into place (during faster shooting) or stop above the rear sight (slow fire). 3. I'm still not great at shooting very tight groups at slow speed. In fact, I'm almost more accurate by shooting at a consistent but hurried pace rather than shooting slowly with a surprise shot break. When I run the gun at a pace I'm more likely to relax my shoulders and not try to steer the gun as the shot breaks (i.e. run it low and right). At slower speeds I tend to flinch. I seem to be able to keep about a 2-3" group at 5 yards with maybe a 2 to 3 shots per second pace. At about 15 yards I can keep my shots inside the head of the silouette target at which I'm shooting (maybe a 6" group?) at about a 1 shot per second pace. 4. Picking up from #3 above, I'm learning to shoot only as fast as my front sight lets me. 5. I'm shooting 124gr PD bullets over 4.3gr of TG with an overall length of 1.13" to 1.145" (see my thread in reloading about this). I have no idea how tight this combination groups since I haven't tried shooting off of a bench yet. I do know that my line of impact appears to be behind the front sight (big white ball on the stock sights) at 5 to 10 yards.

I wanted to drop in and give an update. I've had a bit of a breakthrough last month that I felt was worth sharing. In essence, I've done a couple of things: 1. I finally have an indoor range at which to shoot. A new one opened up not too far from my house and I'm making a point to shoot at least once a week. This is keeping my shooting skills "fresh", so to speak. 2. I changed the way I form my grip. Rather than going with the pinch and roll, I've started bringing my support hand onto the grip first and then wrapping my fingers around under the trigger guard and over my strong hand fingers. Also, I don't worry about locking the support hand wrist but rather I concentrate more on just forming the grip with an overall neutral upper body posture. Finally, a slight and natural push-pull seems to form between my hands but it's not necessary forced but rather almost a product of the setup. To me these changes have had a significant effect. Without my support hand wrist fully canted, it seems to be allowing my grip to move with the recoil of the gun as needed. The result is that while I might have a little movement of the gun inside my hands, they're not coming apart any more. 3. Finally, I quit worrying about how fast I can shoot have started working more on calling my shots as they break. I'm still using the stock craptastic Glock sights but the exercise is still the same. In fact, I'm actually starting to get used to them. I vary the distance of the target as well as the timing of my shots but I'm always trying to see what I can observe on the gun and in my body while shooting. It has been great. Shooting is starting to be fun again.

Thanks for the replies...I'll call PD tomorrow. This picture doesn't quite do much, but the bullet on the left measures 1.130" and the one on the right 1.145". Does this have enough of an effect on the velocity to really matter? I don't have a chronograph to verify.

I'm loading 124gr Precision Delta bullets in mostly Winchester and Remmington brass. I notice that the bullets are sometimes shaped differently, where some are more conical and others flatter. When I measure OAL I notice a variety of different lengths from 1.11" to about 1.14" (the length I had set my dies to give). Does anyone else notice this? Again, some bullets have a flatter tip than others. I can follow with pictures if needed.

From looking at still photos of Dave Sevigny I suspect he doesn't need grip-tape because he can apply a very firm grip to the gun and generate enough friction between it and his support hand. I too can do this with my G19 if I take my time, wedge my strong hand (and gun) into my support hand, and then grip the snot out of it. If I do that I can run a Bill Drill without losing support hand traction. But it seems to take just the right conditions to make it happen. If friction isn't the means by which the support hand stays mated to the gun - and you're not getting substantial traction behind the gun - then what makes the grip work? Is the gun sliding around? Is it acceptable to have the gun swimming around in your support hand to some degree? When I watch more advanced shooters in slow-motion it seems like the gun is glued to their support hands. When I took my first (and only) training class and I learned the grip, I was using my G19 stock, without any tape. The gun was sliding all over the place in my hands. I was able to keep multiple hits on an 10" plate at 8 yards but it felt like I had no control over the gun. The guy who was training me suggested tape and he too had it (TruGrip) on his Glocks. I understand where the OP might be coming from. When I'm shooting in the Winter and my hands are cold and dry it seems like it doesn't matter how hard I grip the gun with my support hand - it will still work lose after a few shots. Full power and +p+ stuff is out of the question. The only way I can keep my hands together in those conditions is either by using tape or some sort of pressure/tension.

I was referring to more of a production type gun like your standard Glock, M&P, or in the case of the OP, his H&K P30. I don't have any experience with Open guns but I had an IPSC shooter (with whom I was training) let me run a magazine through his grippy, all-steel 1911 chambered in 9mm (147gr load). I think my Buckmark .22 has more recoil. Would it be a fair statement to say that your grip-technique is more important on a gun like the OP's P30 shooting factory or full-powered ammo than it is on a race gun with loaded ammo? In my example above I literally couldn't lose the front (fiber-optic) sight and that was just a single magazine through it. It was that easy to shoot. My naked, stock G19 by contrast with factory 115gr felt snappy after it.

In my journey to perfect my grip I've noticed a few things. First, it's simple physics that unless you apply some sort of isometric tension (push-pull or side-to-side compression), the support hand must rely on friction to keep it anchored to the gun and strong hand. This of course explains the popularity of aggressively stippled or grip-taped guns. The only people I see using this grip that don't recommend stippling or grip-tape are 1911 and CZ shooters. They usually have adequately textured grips on their guns and the rounded shape of the grip itself allows the support hand to get a measurable amount of real-estate behind the gun (which lessens the need for support hand strength since it's accepting some of the recoil directly). Second, many of the accomplished shooters you see out there shooting production guns have meaty hands. That helps them get a good patch of contact between their support hand and the grip of the gun. Those of us who don't have such hands sometimes end up with inadequate pressure against the gun from the support hand, which allows the gun to rotate freely in it during recoil. As has been mentioned in this thread already, I've found that on guns like the Glock I need to bring my support elbow up and out a bit, which in turn really drives the meat of the support hand thumb into the gun. Without this I have a difficult time clamping down on the gun with my support hand. Third, don't underestimate the importance of grip-strength. Along with meaty hands, many good shooters also have very strong hands. When they talk about not overgripping the gun and 60/40 and all that, realize that their "60" is closer to the average person's "100". :-) I've found that since I've started building my grip (with CoC grippers), my shooting has improved and my grip has started to become more consistent. Finally, some guns just fit you better than others and it takes modifications to the overall technique to adapt to a particular gun. On a CZ where I can get my support and behind the gun I find that I rely less on grip strength and more on bent elbows and taught wrists. On flat, slippery Glocks and M&Ps I need a stronger support hand grip and adequate friction. Just a few random thoughts...

Great, thanks for the feedback. It's not causing any problems...just have to clean the gun (carry gun) every time I shoot. I'm just about out of Titegroup so I'll try another powder. Now, what I really need is a second Glock 19 so I can carry one and shoot the other.