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Mags in front pocket after table start


p7fl

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Not clear on this.

Match today: table start, gun on X, all magazines to be used on other X.

Everyone else put two mags in retainers on the belt. One shooter put two mags in the front pocket of his cargo pants. RO called two procedurals at the end of the stage.

Shooter was either in Production or Limited, I forgot to double check.

Walked to my car, read 5.2.4 and Appendix D.

Just for my knowledge were the Procedurals correctly applied?

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OK if Limited, bump to Open if Production - did not meet division requirements.

Depends.

Limited is fine.

Production, per 5.2.4 if he doesn't use them, he is OK. if he uses them, bump to open.

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Procedurals not the right way to penalize this... unless the WSB prohibited apparel pockets. Correct penalty is bump to Open for Production, no penalty for Limited.

Correct, if he used them to reload
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Unless he used them to reload, it seems like a bad call:

5.2.4

Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or speed loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the restriction point will be allowed providing they are not removed from the apparel pocket(s) between the “standby” command and the command “ if clear, hammer down and holster”. (e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty).

If they were used to reload then it should have been procedurals and a bump to open for a production shooter.

This is a good question because I was under the impression production shooters could not have mags ahead of the hipbones at any time after make ready. It is good to revisit the rule book now and then.

Thanks for posting.

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For interest. ...

In IPSC there is a specific provision that mags can be stored anywhere at all (regardless of division requirements) after a table start

Sent by Jedi mind control

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A lot of CROs and RM's don't know that one either. I was on an Arb committee not too long ago for this-- A SS shooter put a mag in a front pocket after the beep on a fetch-the-mags stage, but didn't use it (lucky for him)

After the Arb comm found that rule and showed the RM, he said "If I'd have remembered that was there, I wouldn't have bothered y'all with the arbitration".

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Unless he used them to reload, it seems like a bad call:

5.2.4

Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or speed loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the restriction point will be allowed providing they are not removed from the apparel pocket(s) between the “standby” command and the command “ if clear, hammer down and holster”. (e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty).

If they were used to reload then it should have been procedurals and a bump to open for a production shooter.

This is a good question because I was under the impression production shooters could not have mags ahead of the hipbones at any time after make ready. It is good to revisit the rule book now and then.

Thanks for posting.

If the shooter was in production, it should be a bump to open, where the mag placement would be legal, no need for procedural penalty.

If they were in limited, then no penalty as that is an allowable location for spare ammo.

If they showed up for production but had a comp on their gun, you wouldn't give them a per shot procedural and a bump to open, you would just bump them to open and it is done.

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Ha ha ha. Happened this weekend to me as the CRO. After the stage was over I informed the shooter he should be bumped to Open. Kind of a new shooter. He did not know the rule book. He took it ok.

Also many shooters put their gun on the barrel as they loaded their pouches. This cause my some tightness in the lower regions. We had a brief discussion. Guns with external safeties had to have the safety on.

Actually, it was a bad setup, the barrel had no carpet or retaining wood. Most guns were placed with them pointing down range. But it is my fault for not getting there in time to correct the problem.

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At Single Stack Nationals they specifically said if you pull a mag from a front pocket after the buzzer you will be in open. I guess someone grabbed their barney mag from a front pocket during a stage for a reload and got bumped and was not happy with the call.

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Ha ha ha. Happened this weekend to me as the CRO. After the stage was over I informed the shooter he should be bumped to Open. Kind of a new shooter. He did not know the rule book. He took it ok.

Also many shooters put their gun on the barrel as they loaded their pouches. This cause my some tightness in the lower regions. We had a brief discussion. Guns with external safeties had to have the safety on.

Actually, it was a bad setup, the barrel had no carpet or retaining wood. Most guns were placed with them pointing down range. But it is my fault for not getting there in time to correct the problem.

Not all guns with external safeties have to have it engaged to lay it down though
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As this is the USPSA/IPSC Rules section. There is a difference in how this is governed as per IPSC rules.

5.2.4.1 When a Competitor Ready Condition requires that magazines or speed loaders be placed on a table or similar, the competitor may retrieve and carry those items anywhere on their person after the Start Signal, and this will not be treated as contravention of Divisional equipment placement rules

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As this is the USPSA/IPSC Rules section. There is a difference in how this is governed as per IPSC rules.

5.2.4.1 When a Competitor Ready Condition requires that magazines or speed loaders be placed on a table or similar, the competitor may retrieve and carry those items anywhere on their person after the Start Signal, and this will not be treated as contravention of Divisional equipment placement rules

This is one of the examples of an IPSC rule making more sense than the USPSA equivalent. There are as many examples of the reverse also, of course.

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Unless he used them to reload, it seems like a bad call:

5.2.4

Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or speed loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the restriction point will be allowed providing they are not removed from the apparel pocket(s) between the “standby” command and the command “ if clear, hammer down and holster”. (e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty).

If they were used to reload then it should have been procedurals and a bump to open for a production shooter.

This is a good question because I was under the impression production shooters could not have mags ahead of the hipbones at any time after make ready. It is good to revisit the rule book now and then.

Thanks for posting.

If the shooter was in production, it should be a bump to open, where the mag placement would be legal, no need for procedural penalty.

If they were in limited, then no penalty as that is an allowable location for spare ammo.

If they showed up for production but had a comp on their gun, you wouldn't give them a per shot procedural and a bump to open, you would just bump them to open and it is done.

The bump would only occur if the shooter used them. Or am I misreading "carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the restriction point will be allowed providing they are not removed from the apparel pocket" ?

The original poster didn't say they had been used. If they were used then there would be a penalty.

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5.2.4 does not say they must be used, but rather that they cannot be "removed from the apparel pockets..." Thus, simply removing from the apparel pocket between the buzzer and "if clear, hammer down, holster" should bump the person to open according to a strict reading of the actual words of the rule.

Further, that isn't the actual end of the COF, which is designated by "range is clear."

Edited by IL-SIG
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