ozzyj Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 So I'm brand new to reloading and have some questions about how I'm loading my 9mm. Background, I have a Lee Classic Turret press which I'm basically operating in Single Stage mode until I get the hang of things. I have RCBS 9mm dies and RCBS 9mm shell holder. I loaded my first 25 rounds yesterday then shot them, most successfully. Hornady 115gr FMJ bullets, new Remmington brass, S&B primers. Loaded 4.0gr of Titegroup to an OAL of 1.150. I verified each and every round by measuring OAL and overall loaded weight, every round was in the the ball park of 180gr (+/- a grain or so). I did not crimp. I'm having a couple problems so far. I had a squib round last night but for the life of me can't figure out why it happened. As I mentioned I weighed each finished round individually so I know there must have been roughly the correct amount of powder in the case. I guess it could be a bad primer but I'm also wondering if there isn't something else about my process that could have caused this as I'm fairly confident the problem lies with me and not S&B primers. I've also noticed that the seating die is gouging some of my brass, sometimes significantly, see attached. Thats by far the worst example of them all but there are others where there is still a line/mark/gouge that can be seen and felt. Now, this seems to be lessened/reduced significantly by flaring the case mouth more aggressively, but then the finished round almost appears to have a gap between the bullet and the case. Nothing "significant" (quotes because thats a judgement call on my part and I have no idea what I'm talking about yet) but definitely noticeable compared to a factory round. Any guidance on either/both of these issues would be appreciated. Not sure if they're connected or two different things altogether. On a related note anyone interested in stopping by my house in NJ to help with my setup for a small consulting fee ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyj Posted July 25, 2016 Author Share Posted July 25, 2016 I should add that the squib round occurred in a Sig P320 and lodged itself just barely into the rifling, didn't really go anywhere at all. Also, while about half the rounds cycled the P320 properly (before the squib), only 1 or 2 cycled my M&P 9 Pro. I'm chalking this up to the minimum powder charge, but I don't want to make any assumptions so I figured I'd throw it out there as additional info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathanb Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 If you reload you need access to a chrono. Get in the habit of visually inspecting each case for powder drop. If it barely hit the rifling you didn't have powder in it. If there was an issue with a primer I'd expect powder to be all over your hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyj Posted July 25, 2016 Author Share Posted July 25, 2016 If you reload you need access to a chrono. Get in the habit of visually inspecting each case for powder drop. If it barely hit the rifling you didn't have powder in it. If there was an issue with a primer I'd expect powder to be all over your hands. So I'll totally admit thats possible, but how would the round have weighed the same as the others if there was no powder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchapman Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 Because different head stamp brass can and will weigh different, there may also be differences in the same brand but different lot numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkreutz Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 The squib was most likely due to a high primer. The first strike seated the primer the rest of the way. Pretty sure it would fire the second time (mine always do). You need to crimp your rounds. The flare die makes the opening in the brass large enough for the bullet to enter the case easily (and straight) the crimp die then takes the "bell" out of the brass. You don't want to crimp it any more than that. This will have a large effect on accuracy. Chrono's are a handy bit of gear, but unless you are aiming at a certain power factor, or loading at the upper limits of the powder charge, they are more of a luxury than a necessity. NJ is a bit far for me, but I would stop by if I was closer. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 The squib was most likely due to a high primer. The first strike seated the primer the rest of the way. wait, what? A high primer may result in a misfire that then fires on the 2nd strike, but it shouldn't result in a squib. In general, forgetting to put gunpowder in a primed case is what causes a squib, especially one that just barely makes it into the rifling. although I have also had one from a split case (lodged well down the barrel). I imagine it might be possible to get one from some kind of contamination or foreign material in the case. but haven't personally observed such a thing. for the OP, in general, weighing finished pistol rounds is a waste of time. there is typically a couple grains variance in the bullets and another couple grains variance in the cases, so it would be very easy to have 3-4 grains variance in the weight of the finished rounds (which it sounds like you had, 180 +- 'a grain or two'. That is coincidentally about the weight of the powder. when loading on a single stage, I worked in batches of 50, and after the powder drop I inspected all 50 cases in the bullet tray to visually verify that they all had powder and it was about the same level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 If you reload you need access to a chrono. Get in the habit of visually inspecting each case for powder drop. If it barely hit the rifling you didn't have powder in it. If there was an issue with a primer I'd expect powder to be all over your hands. So I'll totally admit thats possible, but how would the round have weighed the same as the others if there was no powder?Different brands of brass can weigh as much as 10-15 grains differently. Weighing completed rounds does nothing (even in same headstamp brass) other than tell you that each round weighs roughly the same. As for the gouge, it would seem the bullet is leaning over sideways a bit when you start your seating process. Flare the case a little more and see it it stands mostly upright before seating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyj Posted July 25, 2016 Author Share Posted July 25, 2016 Thanks for the feedback all. Flaring more does seem to help, but since I didn't setup my seating die to crimp it seems that theres a bit of a visible gap (barely so....) between the mouth and the bullet. What should the mouth size be on a finished 9mm round, or a range of tolerances? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 (edited) If the rounds chamber, you probably are doing some crimp/un-belling of the case consider it a fortunate accident the failure to fire is very likely to be a high primer. the lee turret does primers by 'feel' take a fired case and repress the primer and press it a hard as you can you have to get used to "all the way" and then a little more. that is try a few time to get a sense of how it feels to press hard. the best advice I was given was --> press that primer in there. I have not set one off in the press and I have tried. miranda Edited July 25, 2016 by Miranda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkreutz Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 (edited) The squib was most likely due to a high primer. The first strike seated the primer the rest of the way. wait, what? A high primer may result in a misfire that then fires on the 2nd strike, but it shouldn't result in a squib. In general, forgetting to put gunpowder in a primed case is what causes a squib, especially one that just barely makes it into the rifling. although I have also had one from a split case (lodged well down the barrel). I imagine it might be possible to get one from some kind of contamination or foreign material in the case. but haven't personally observed such a thing. for the OP, in general, weighing finished pistol rounds is a waste of time. there is typically a couple grains variance in the bullets and another couple grains variance in the cases, so it would be very easy to have 3-4 grains variance in the weight of the finished rounds (which it sounds like you had, 180 +- 'a grain or two'. That is coincidentally about the weight of the powder. when loading on a single stage, I worked in batches of 50, and after the powder drop I inspected all 50 cases in the bullet tray to visually verify that they all had powder and it was about the same level. Sorry, had a brain fart there. I'm claiming a senior moment. Of course you're right, somehow I got misfire on the brain. Edited July 25, 2016 by Bkreutz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 I had a squib round - bullet lodged in the rifling Sounds to me that you did not visually confirm there was powder in each case before you loaded a bullet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dons Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 You should try seating the bullet as a separate operation from applying the crimp (removing the flare). Since it appears from your description you may not have a separate taper crimp die, your process may be something like this: After insuring you have powder in the case, seat the bullet (following the above advice about flaring the case mouth more) in all the cases you're going to load for this session. The you will have to screw out the seating stem so your bullets won't be seated any deeper, then screw in the die body until you can see the "flare" all but disappear when your run a case/bullet into the crimping die. Mouth of the case can be about .375 to a max of .380 inches. The Lee Turret only has 3 die stations that I remember, but to be effective you really either need a 4th station or to perform one of the processes (size & prime, powder drop, seat bullet, crimp) as a separate operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcoz Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 Best advice as others have said is to visually check every single case for powder. Weighing finished rounds is a waste of time and can be dangerous if you don't recognize a squib and fire another round behind it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lefty o Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 I had a squib round - bullet lodged in the rifling Sounds to me that you did not visually confirm there was powder in each case before you loaded a bullet? this is correct. a primer by itself will start the bullet into the rifling. from what is being described, id say there was no powder present in the squib round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 I agree with the others. You somehow loaded a round without powder. That's exactly how far they tend to make it downrange - i.e. ... not very far. Don't bother weighing completed ammo. Spend that time triple checking each case by eye for a case that's got roughly the correct amount of powder in it, then place and seat your bullet immediately without doing ANYTHING else. "I see powder, insert and press bullet." Then I let myself think about something else. This habit means any in-process ammo with a bullet in it has been visually confirmed to be charged with less than a double-charge and more than a squib (no powder). Flare your cases until they have a noticeable bell to them. Seat your bullet. Then use a separate crimping operation to remove all traces of the flaring step so that the wall is straight again, and stop there. Over-crimping is a common mistake of novice reloaders. I call my crimp die's setup good after I've pulled a bullet and confirmed that there's no trace of the crimp on the sides of the bullet. It isn't getting undersized or cut by the case mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 Weighing loaded rounds I'd a fool's errand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 he is new to reloading. are you all sure he knows a squib from a fail to fire? he didn't mention bullet lodged in the rifling... I know that on a lee turret learning the press the primers is a 'feel' thing I have made a few FTF rounds on that same press. we all know the chant: look for powder before you place the bullet. he seems to be looking.... on a tee turret... case in size place primer. --> PRESS <-- the primer in place get powder --> LOOK <-- at powder... (when the powder looks back, call it a night) place bullet seat crimp remove round. look every time. you will get a sense of primer pressing after a hundred rounds make the look at powder THE habit you form. you want to see powder. get extra light if you need it. look for powder, set bullet. squibs are dangerous! oh, an old thread :-D http://forums.brianenos.com/index.php?showtopic=41979 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 he is new to reloading. are you all sure he knows a squib from a fail to fire? he didn't mention bullet lodged in the rifling... I know that on a lee turret learning the press the primers is a 'feel' thing I have made a few FTF rounds on that same press. we all know the chant: look for powder before you place the bullet. he seems to be looking.... on a tee turret... case in size place primer. --> PRESS <-- the primer in place get powder --> LOOK <-- at powder... (when the powder looks back, call it a night) place bullet seat crimp remove round. look every time. you will get a sense of primer pressing after a hundred rounds make the look at powder THE habit you form. you want to see powder. get extra light if you need it. look for powder, set bullet. squibs are dangerous! oh, an old thread :-D http://forums.brianenos.com/index.php?showtopic=41979 He said early on that the bullet lodged just barely ahead of the chamber after firing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lefty o Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 he is new to reloading. are you all sure he knows a squib from a fail to fire? he didn't mention bullet lodged in the rifling... I know that on a lee turret learning the press the primers is a 'feel' thing I have made a few FTF rounds on that same press. we all know the chant: look for powder before you place the bullet. he seems to be looking.... on a tee turret... case in size place primer. --> PRESS <-- the primer in place get powder --> LOOK <-- at powder... (when the powder looks back, call it a night) place bullet seat crimp remove round. look every time. you will get a sense of primer pressing after a hundred rounds make the look at powder THE habit you form. you want to see powder. get extra light if you need it. look for powder, set bullet. squibs are dangerous! oh, an old thread :-D http://forums.brianenos.com/index.php?showtopic=41979 read his 2nd post. it says it all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 (edited) lodged into rifling could be from chambering the round. buuuut the color of the primer would tell the tale. miranda Edited July 26, 2016 by Miranda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lefty o Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 read his 2nd post again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 how many times would you like me to read it ? miranda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 how many times would you like me to read it ? miranda until you agree with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 works for me! lets see if we can get ozzyj to check the primer. while we chew on this old bone, please realize we are all saying the same things press the primer home AND make sure to check the powder. cheers miranda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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