Tbone550 Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 The other 9mm 165 gr thread seemed like it might be about to start going down the tubes, so I thought I'd start a new thread for my question. I'm shooting IDPA, trying out some heavier stuff. I picked up some Xtreme 165's and am tinkering with them. Only pistol powders I have here are 231 and Titegroup, but it looks like I'm going to need more. I can barely make PF with 2.8 grs of TG, getting 771 fps with it and a SD of 9. Would like to be up around 790 to be sure it'll always work, but my WSP primers are flattening. I'm shooting this load through an LTT-built Beretta 92G with a Bar-Sto barrel and getting no keyholing, but I also want to be able to run it in my BUG gun which is a PX4 Compact. With that pistol I'm getting 735 fps and at least 3 out of 10 rounds are keyholing. Also tried this same load in an STI Sentry 5", and it keyholed a couple. My understanding is that keyholing can happen from bullet base deformity, a too-heavy crimp, or too low of velocity. I'm taper-crimping and only removing the flare. Seating to 1.155 OAL. When I tried 231, I was getting primer flattening at 2.9 grs and only 720 fps. I haven't worked with loads that were on the edge of max before, so I could use your help. I have some CCI SP primers here that I could try if they would help, and I could stretch the OAL out by another .010 and see if it would still feed...but I wonder if the real problem is just that I don't have a slow enough powder to get done what I want. Any suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 my WSP primers are flattening? Any suggestions? Welcome to the Forums. I'd love to see a photo of these "flattened" primers ... Don't think you should be getting flattened primers with those loads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tbone550 Posted June 12, 2016 Author Share Posted June 12, 2016 Hold on, I'll walk out to the range and police that brass up - needed to do it today anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 I would use caution with this heavy bullet experiment. I was once warned that its easier to blow a gun up with loads like this than it is a super hot load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tbone550 Posted June 12, 2016 Author Share Posted June 12, 2016 Hope this pic shows up for you all...my camera's pictures are too big for this site so I put it on photobucket and linked using the "Copy URL" button. So here's some of the brass. The closest row is a few fired from either the PX4 or the STI; not sure which. The back three rows all come from the Beretta 92G. Easy to i.d. because of the firing pin channel imprint these pistols make on the primers. They look like they're flattening to me...the rounded edge radius of the primers are squared off. But maybe you see (or don't see) something I don't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v1911 Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 (edited) You don't have enough Umph behind it to get it stabilized. Edited June 12, 2016 by v1911 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 Yeah, BUT, those primers are definitely flattened. As Sarge mentioned, I'd go carefully from here - I'd wait to hear back from some of our members who have used those powders for very heavy bullets - see what they have to say before I upped the load. Which gun did these brass come from - a few look more flattened than others ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tbone550 Posted June 12, 2016 Author Share Posted June 12, 2016 Yeah, BUT, those primers are definitely flattened. Which gun did these brass come from - a few look more flattened than others ... I didn't police all of the brass between loads, so all I can say for sure is that the ones in the background all came from the Beretta 92, and the ones in the front either came from the PX4 or the STI. The difference in how the primers look could be from which load (tried two different 231 loads and two different TG loads) or could be from differences in internal case capacities (mixed brass) causing pressure differences. I found somewhere online that 2.8 grs of TG was at 9mm +P pressure levels (around 38k psi), so that info in combination with the primer appearance is why I stopped upping the powder. Would like to hear some other powder recommendations from those who're using these loads...have seen mention of AA #7, etc. I'm not afraid to buy new powders, just don't want to lose sight of the main goal which is to comfortably make PF (790-800 fps would be perfect) and keep the recoil levels as low as possible. And do these things safely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrispies Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 You might want to check if the different guns have different twist rates to their rifling. It might be that the guns which are keyholing have slower twist rates than the ones that are stabilizing the bullets better. That's a heavy (or more appropriately "long") bullet for a standard twist barrel in that caliber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDescribe Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 Without going into the why of it, each successive identical increase in powder results in a bigger increase in pressure than did the last increase in powder. Pressure increases geometrically with successive charge increases. And the heavier the bullet, the more dramatic the effect. Loading for 9mm, a high-pressure cartridge with low case volume already, with an extremely heavy-for-caliber bullet (165), with a very fast-burning powder is pretty much the perfect storm for pressure increases per incremental charge weight increase. And people have blown guns trying to eek out that last little bit of velocity they need with a powder they already know is too fast for the application. You are already showing pressure signs. You would be a fool to increase powder charge further to try to get any extra velocity. There may be no additional pressure sign before you have a catastrophic failure. And in my opinion, you'd be a making a mistake to shoot what you've already got. Why subject your pistol to a diet of +P loads in order to chase a supposed benefit that's really just a poor fix for problematic grip and recoil control? Reloading rule of thumb: if you have any problems getting to the velocity you need with the powder you have, go to a slower powder. AND you're keyholing. You're showing pressure signs in a pistol cartridge (playing with fire) with the charge weight that just barely gets you over the PF floor, and that velocity isn't fast enough to keep at least 3 out of 10 travelling fast enough to remain gyro-stablized. I'd say everything about this is telling you to go to a slower powder or, better yet, get back to a lighter bullet. You're chasing a pig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tbone550 Posted June 13, 2016 Author Share Posted June 13, 2016 IDescribe, thank you for reiterating the problems with this load as it currently sits. That's what I briefly did in my title line and elaborated on in the original and following posts. Did you have an experienced suggestion for a slower powder to use with the 165's? Because that is what I came here looking for. These 165's are an experiment for me. I enjoy reloading just for the sake of reloading, and if I gain some benefit from it, great. If not, also fine. There's no need to criticize my grip or recoil control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDescribe Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 IDescribe, thank you for reiterating the problems with this load as it currently sits. That's what I briefly did in my title line and elaborated on in the original and following posts. Did you have an experienced suggestion for a slower powder to use with the 165's? Because that is what I came here looking for. These 165's are an experiment for me. I enjoy reloading just for the sake of reloading, and if I gain some benefit from it, great. If not, also fine. There's no need to criticize my grip or recoil control. Experienced suggestion? Sure -- Silhouette or WSF Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wimms Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 Speaking not from experience but from analytical mind, it takes more time to accelerate the heavier bullet in the barrel so fast powder reaches its peak pressure in smaller volume causing the pressure signs and then it is not enough to push the bullet to desired velocity. So I would also go for slower powder. I am loading my 152 coated with VV N320, so I'd go for N330 or N340. You might also try seating the bullets a tad deeper. This would allow them to engage rifling with more authority. Be cautious though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v1911 Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 The problem with the slower powder is that it will take up more case volume. That 165 is already seated deep enough that it's probably touching powder. Add to that combo a slower powder and now you're looking at a compressed powder load. That 165 was probably designed for 38 super. If you MUST try a 165gr bullet, go with coated and not plated. At least you would need less powder to achieve your goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wimms Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 The problem with the slower powder is that it will take up more case volume. That 165 is already seated deep enough that it's probably touching powder. Add to that combo a slower powder and now you're looking at a compressed powder load. Good point. Another aspect to consider when chosing powder. Volume of required powder depends not only on its geometry but also on the chemistry used. Some powders take less volume than others. Something to look for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dlister70 Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 (edited) I'm shooting the 165 grain bullet with 2.6 grains of Titegroup at 1.165" target OAL, and haven't experienced any keyholes. 1.175" seems to work in my 5" M&P, but anything longer than that won't feed reliably, so I knocked it down to 1.165" to account for the variations in overall length that I was getting. Sometimes I'll get a 1.159", sometimes a 1.170", but it's never longer than 1.175" so they're all good to go. Edited June 16, 2016 by Dlister70 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tbone550 Posted June 16, 2016 Author Share Posted June 16, 2016 Hey Dlister, thanks for your reply. I tried 2.6 but wasn't making PF at that charge. I'm not getting any keyholing with my IDPA gun, but am with the others. The bigger issue is pressure. The Quickload software just came in the mail, so I'm going to sit down and see if I can't start figuring out some options with slower powders - see what type of pressures are predicted for loads that'll make PF reliably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tbone550 Posted June 16, 2016 Author Share Posted June 16, 2016 An update on this: After doing some studying in the Quickload software, I went to town with a list of suitable powders going by the pressure numbers in the software. The only powder I was able to find locally was Hodgdon Longshot, and a load of 3.8 grs has given me an average of 823 fps in the full-size Beretta (SD 15), and 798 fps in the PX4 Compact. There was no keyholing on the targets and the primers looked normal. There was a storm coming so no time for in-depth testing, but for now it looks like I have a powder that solves the previous problems I was having. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noylj Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 (edited) Deleted Edited June 17, 2016 by noylj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noylj Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 1) Twist rate for 9x19 for stabilization is greater than 1:25, so ALL commercial barrels have MORE than enough twist for stability. 2) Keyholing almost always means the bullet is too small in diameter for that barrel. I don't care what the barrel slugs at, try a bullet 0.001-0.002" larger and I'll bet most all keyholing goes away. If you haven't slugged you gun, remember that 9x19 barrels can range from 0.355-0.359" in groove diameter and, generally, plated bullets should be sized the same as lead. Just in case, attached is a picture of keyholing (and not just oval holes from the target not being rigid and hanging square). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UFO Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 This may help, a fellow shooter with a CZ SP01 uses TiteGroup @ 2.8grn at 1.14 O.A.L. Makes PF and has no over pressure signs. In my SP01, I resorted to my Revolver load and use Clays @ 3.0 at 1.155 and show no signs of over pressure, is very accurate. Have not chrono'd yet, but that load makes 131pf in my revo and they bleed pressure everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDescribe Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 How accurate is "very accurate"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UFO Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 How accurate is "very accurate"? Knock out a 1" paster @ 25yds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UFO Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 How accurate is "very accurate"? Knock out a 1" paster @ 25yds You can see a 1" paster at 25 yards? Yeah, you have to turn the dot down to it's lowest setting and cover it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tejano51 Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 As a new member I can't post a link, but I did find loading data by searching "Reloading Heavy Bullets in 9mm Luger." You will find a Shooting Times article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now