Alan Adamson Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 (edited) I kinda borrowed a fix, but it appears to work just great... For those that might not know... When loading .40 or 9mm Major on a 650, the case get's kinda full. As a result, when the press indexes to the next station, there is a spring and ball detent that holds the shellplate into the next position and it seems most of the time, that ball "snaps" the plate into position enough that it causes powder to go flying. There have been various fixes - cut 1/2 - 1 turns off the spring under the ball detent, tighten or loosen the shellplate bolt, etc. None of them seem to *really* work. What I found was a needle thrust bearing and a set of washers that are a perfect fit and appear to have solved the problem. This bearing allows you to *almost* tighten the shellplate bolt all the way and still allow the shellplate to turn freely. As a result, it takes all the play out of the shellplate and instead of the ball snapping the plate to the next index, it actually "glides" to that index. The parts are local if in Atlanta, or if not, they are easily available via the web. If you order one day, they usually arrive the next. So here's the fix. Go to www.mcmaster.com (McMaster Carr - an awesome, just about has everything, parts supplier, that doesn't have a minimum order!), and get these parts. 5909K31 1 Each Steel Needle-roller Thrust Bearing Cage Assembly For 1/2" Shaft Diameter, 15/16" Od 5909K44 2 Each .032" Thick Washer For 1/2" Shaft Diameter Steel Needle-roller Thrust Bearing That's PARTNUMBER, QTY, DESC Mind you this is an open bearing so you'll need to make sure and keep it clean and lubed, but it should work. Now, where did I borrow this... well Uniquetek makes a roller bearing mod for the 550 and while it requires a new "star" for it to work with this bearing, I figured, hey, there's no star used with the 650, so this should work and work it appears it does nicely. I've made no other mods and will keep you posted as to my results... but *I'm tired of getting powder* all over occasionally. Adjustment seems to be tighten the bolt to the stop finger tight, and then just a very small *smidge* back, then lock the allen screw. YMMV, Alan IMAGES ADDED Below Edited June 11, 2009 by Alan Adamson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoshidaex Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 utilizing those 3 pieces, did you have to re-adjust your dies? also, do the brass buttons keep the brass in alignment at the 3 stations? how bout some pics? sounds like a useable fix for my powder spillage problems. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UW Mitch Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 I'd like to see some pics too. Sounds like a great approach! And I also love McMaster! I've always selected standard ground shipping and recieved parts the next morning for an order placed at 430pm! ~Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Adamson Posted June 11, 2009 Author Share Posted June 11, 2009 (edited) yes to both above...the brass buttons are not effected whatsoever by this mod. I make no change to the order of the spring, ball, shellplate, so there is no adjustment needed in the dies.... Well, I should say, I suspect there might be a little tweak that will be needed... I haven't loaded anything yet, expect for a couple of test cases... I'll take pictures and load some tonight (actually 200 for a local match this weekend). I do expect that the tolerances will actually be better as this takes all the play out of the shellplate. So it shouldn't allow the plate to move whatever it was moving when used without the bearing... Just to confirm. assembly would be. - spring in hole as stock - ball on spring as stock (both of these form the detent) - place the Shellplate on the ball/spring and pressed down to ease bolt insertion. - Then on the shellplate bolt, place .032 washer #1, then the needle bearing, then .032 washer #2, this should fit up against the head on the bolt. .. a little light oil will help with keeping low friction against the shellplate to bolt interface, which will still be there. - Now insert the bolt into the shellplate just like you did with out the bearing and tighten down to finger stop tight. Now back of just a micro smidge, it will still be snug, but not to the stop tight. - Cycle the handle a few times to make sure you have no tension on the shellplate and if not, tighten the setscrew that holds the shellplate bolt. You'll find that you can incrementally get this setup more snug than without the bearing and the entire rotation will seem to be *way* smoother and jerk free, especially at the ball detent stops. It will also sound noticably smoother and less *notchy*. More with pictures later tonight. Alan Edited June 11, 2009 by Alan Adamson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSEMARTIN Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Thanks for posting. And if you get time, please post pictures. I'd sure appreciate it!! Thanks again. This would be a great thread to put in the tips and tricks section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoshidaex Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Washer/bearing/washer on top of the shell plate. I was thinking under the shell plate at first in which case the dies will need to be adjusted slightly. would a bearing on the underside work in conjunction with the bearing on top? that would require die adjustment but if indexing is smoothed out considerably that would be worth it. not sure if there might be issues with brass button. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h2osport Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Washer/bearing/washer on top of the shell plate. I was thinking under the shell plate at first in which case the dies will need to be adjusted slightly. would a bearing on the underside work in conjunction with the bearing on top? that would require die adjustment but if indexing is smoothed out considerably that would be worth it. not sure if there might be issues with brass button. You would not want a bearing under the shell plate. It would cause too much clearance between the brass and shellplate, and cause all sorts of problems. This looks like a great fix. It is cutting down on rotating friction. Thanks for posting the idea. Randy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoshidaex Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 You would not want a bearing under the shell plate. It would cause too much clearance between the brass and shellplate, and cause all sorts of problems. This looks like a great fix. It is cutting down on rotating friction.Thanks for posting the idea. Randy I understand a too thick of a needle bearing thrust washer would cause clearance issues between the shellplate/case/brass button interface but a thin one shouldn't cause too much issues. Alan, How thin/thick is that needle bearing thrust washer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Alan,How thin/thick is that needle bearing thrust washer? 5/64...according to their website specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 You would not want a bearing under the shell plate. It would cause too much clearance between the brass and shellplate, and cause all sorts of problems. Randy We are talking 650, right? The brass rides on the shellplate. Hiro, You want to try this? Let me know and I will order some parts. Sound interesting... Later, Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoshidaex Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Thanks Flex. Ugh. Fractions I know, 0.078125" Chuck, I was thinking using something laying around in the race shop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Adamson Posted June 11, 2009 Author Share Posted June 11, 2009 You would not want a bearing under the shell plate. It would cause too much clearance between the brass and shellplate, and cause all sorts of problems. This looks like a great fix. It is cutting down on rotating friction.Thanks for posting the idea. Randy I understand a too thick of a needle bearing thrust washer would cause clearance issues between the shellplate/case/brass button interface but a thin one shouldn't cause too much issues. Alan, How thin/thick is that needle bearing thrust washer? Really, there are *no* issues with this... Ok, well, it could be that the bolt head sets 5/64 of an inch higher than it did before, but everything else is in alignment... Now you are going to go make me check a few things that I didn't this afternoon. I *dont* believe there are any clearance issues... if there are they will only be because the thrust bearing/washers are 15/16" in OD and the head of the bolt is 3/4", and the head of the bolt will be higher by the 5/64" as mentioned. There are plenty of threads so there is no issue there. I know the sholder still resides fully in the shellplate so there should be no issues there... The locking allen screw still contacts the sholder so no issues there. But the thing I do need to check is the crank down, shellplate to toolholder clearance... Again, I don't think there are any issues there, but it's worth a follow on check. I've attempted to take all the play out of my 650 setup... I use the Uniquetek toolholder upgrade and screw the toolholder in taking all the slack and up/down movement out of the toolholder to press interface... Now by using this bearing, it should take all the play out of the shellplate and I'll just be left with the play of the case to shellplate interface, which there isn't anything that can be done about, nor would you want to or case insertion/extraction would be too awkward. Ok, pictures to follow... I promise... Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Adamson Posted June 11, 2009 Author Share Posted June 11, 2009 All, I added images above in the original founding post... Hope these help... I really don't want to take the bearing back out, but can if pushed ... it's a SS .032 flat washer made for the task from Timken, and then the flat needle bearing also from Timken, and then another SS .032 flat washer. The ID is .5" and the OD is 15/16". Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 I'll look in the morning, but I assume this will work with a 1050 too. I'm tired of "slow" loading my 9major match ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Thanks Flex. Ugh. Fractions I know, 0.078125" Chuck, I was thinking using something laying around in the race shop Leo would be proud! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoshidaex Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Alan, Nice detailed pics. Thanks I'd really like to try and place a bearing under the shellplate to reduce friction further. If I can source a thin enough bearing, using tiny washers to place the brass button slightly higher should help with the alignment issues. At that point I think the key would be to use a thin enough thrust bearing to prevent the shell plate from sticking up too high where the brass can fall out regardless of which station the case is at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoshidaex Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Thanks Flex. Ugh. Fractions I know, 0.078125" Chuck, I was thinking using something laying around in the race shop Leo would be proud! hehehe if its laying around not being used, open game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Adamson Posted June 12, 2009 Author Share Posted June 12, 2009 Alan,Nice detailed pics. Thanks I'd really like to try and place a bearing under the shellplate to reduce friction further. If I can source a thin enough bearing, using tiny washers to place the brass button slightly higher should help with the alignment issues. At that point I think the key would be to use a thin enough thrust bearing to prevent the shell plate from sticking up too high where the brass can fall out regardless of which station the case is at. well, I'll take a look at that tomorrow... I'm sure there are thinner bearings or maybe even a very thin teflon washer to some other slippery type device... Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Adamson Posted June 12, 2009 Author Share Posted June 12, 2009 Alan,Nice detailed pics. Thanks I'd really like to try and place a bearing under the shellplate to reduce friction further. If I can source a thin enough bearing, using tiny washers to place the brass button slightly higher should help with the alignment issues. At that point I think the key would be to use a thin enough thrust bearing to prevent the shell plate from sticking up too high where the brass can fall out regardless of which station the case is at. well, I'll take a look at that tomorrow... I'm sure there are thinner bearings or maybe even a very thin teflon washer to some other slippery type device... Alan I suppose this might work, it's very thin and is PTFE... has a .5 ID and a .688 OD and is .027-.035 thick mcmaster number - 95630A246 there is one other that might also work... it's .5 ID and 1.003 OD and .057 - .067 thick mcmaster number - 95630A248 However, I don't know what the actual clearance (plus a little) might be... I'll try to figure that out tomorrow and when I take my press plate apart I'll add pictures of the actual bearing... you guys just want me to take that apart don't you ... Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken8521 Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Alan,Nice detailed pics. Thanks I'd really like to try and place a bearing under the shellplate to reduce friction further. If I can source a thin enough bearing, using tiny washers to place the brass button slightly higher should help with the alignment issues. At that point I think the key would be to use a thin enough thrust bearing to prevent the shell plate from sticking up too high where the brass can fall out regardless of which station the case is at. well, I'll take a look at that tomorrow... I'm sure there are thinner bearings or maybe even a very thin teflon washer to some other slippery type device... Alan I suppose this might work, it's very thin and is PTFE... has a .5 ID and a .688 OD and is .027-.035 thick mcmaster number - 95630A246 there is one other that might also work... it's .5 ID and 1.003 OD and .057 - .067 thick mcmaster number - 95630A248 However, I don't know what the actual clearance (plus a little) might be... I'll try to figure that out tomorrow and when I take my press plate apart I'll add pictures of the actual bearing... you guys just want me to take that apart don't you ... Alan Forgive me for being a Dillon newb, still researching a new press, but I've read about this "problem" elsewhere. What type of die adjustments is required w/ this modification. Just looking at it, I'm guessing you'd have to set the dies a bit deeper, because the shell plate bolt hits the top of the press sooner. Interesting fix for this sort of issue, and seems really easy to try, and if it doesn't work, you're only out about 10 bucks. Thanks for sharing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UW Mitch Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Thanks for the pics! Now I just have to find other things to order from McMaster! Won't be too hard I'm sure. ~Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Adamson Posted June 12, 2009 Author Share Posted June 12, 2009 Forgive me for being a Dillon newb, still researching a new press, but I've read about this "problem" elsewhere.What type of die adjustments is required w/ this modification. Just looking at it, I'm guessing you'd have to set the dies a bit deeper, because the shell plate bolt hits the top of the press sooner. Interesting fix for this sort of issue, and seems really easy to try, and if it doesn't work, you're only out about 10 bucks. Thanks for sharing Didn't have to change anything... the shellplate bolt doesn't come close to hitting, there is still probably .5" clearance even with the additional washer/bearing. At the moment the only adjustment will be maybe a little reset on all the dies due to taking out the play in the shellplate, but I haven't changed anything on my press yet. I'm going to look at this bearing surface under the shellplate today to see if there is room to do it without messing with the indexing or creating case wobble. We'll see, it may work, it may not and it may not be needed even if it works... Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h2osport Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 You would not want a bearing under the shell plate. It would cause too much clearance between the brass and shellplate, and cause all sorts of problems. Randy We are talking 650, right? The brass rides on the shellplate. Hiro, You want to try this? Let me know and I will order some parts. Sound interesting... Later, Chuck I was thinking like a 550 owner. A couple of things to think about on putting the washer/bearing under the shellplate. When you cycle the press as designed, all of the load is distributed evenly from the shellplate to the main platform via the full diameter of the shellplate. If you install anything to raise up the shell plate this force will be distributed fully on the diameter of the lifting material(nylon washer, bearing, etc). My guess is that either the shell plate will flex the amount of lift, or the lifting material will become distorted/ruined. Neither result sounds good. I am not sure if the shell plate is hardened, and if so how hard it is. Intsalling the thrust bearing(.078125 or thinner maybe) with out the thrust washers will most likely dent the shell plate and main platform at the position where the rollers are when the press is activated. Adding the thrust washers at .032" each will raise the shellplate .014125" which is going to allow for well over 1/8" of flex in the shell plate. I think it may be opening up a can of worms. You have options like insetting the bearing into the main platform and setting the bearing protrusion to a minimum, but I am not sure all of the work would be worth it. Randy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Adamson Posted June 12, 2009 Author Share Posted June 12, 2009 Thanks for the pics! Now I just have to find other things to order from McMaster! Won't be too hard I'm sure.~Mitch ya, it is a small set of parts, but there is no mininum. They also carry the helicoil inserts if you've converted or want to convert to a locked toolholder...both my 550 and my 650 are in the process of being converted and I need to order a few more inserts Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Adamson Posted June 12, 2009 Author Share Posted June 12, 2009 Nope, you can't add any form of washer, bearing, etc *under* the shellplate, there are too many things that use the little clearance there is there and I *do* mean little. So best option is the bearing above as I've suggested above. Just wanted to let everyone know. BTW, I maybe had to add .001 back to my seating die to get the oal to average where I was before the change is the only change I made... gotta love a competition seating die for that Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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