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1911 Barrel Accuracy


CSEMARTIN

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An interesting barrel-related thread:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=57882

I've never heard of anyone selling barrels that have been tested as in shooting them...air gauge, star gauge etc yes, but not by shooting. It's probably not worth it anyway since the way the barrel is fit makes the biggest difference in how well it's going to shoot. A cheap barrel that's been fit perfectly is going to shoot better than an awesome barrel that was fit poorly. R,

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No one will sell a barrel with an accuracy guarantee. As Bart pointed out, fitting is the key to accuracy. Years ago, a bullseye gunsmith named Al Dinan made a test fixture for testing the accuracy of a given barrel. It used a Mauser action I believe. From the fixture, a Colt barrel would shoot as well as any custom barrel then on the market....ie...BarSto, Kart. Fit, then ammo is the key factors for a tight shooting pistol.

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No one will sell a barrel with an accuracy guarantee. As Bart pointed out, fitting is the key to accuracy. Years ago, a bullseye gunsmith named Al Dinan made a test fixture for testing the accuracy of a given barrel. It used a Mauser action I believe. From the fixture, a Colt barrel would shoot as well as any custom barrel then on the market....ie...BarSto, Kart. Fit, then ammo is the key factors for a tight shooting pistol.

Thats interesting to know. I remember seeing an episode of shootingUSA where they had a Doug Koenig profile. It showed him using some sort of fixture to test the accuracy of a barrel. I'm wondering if its the same fixture or one very similar.

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No one will sell a barrel with an accuracy guarantee. As Bart pointed out, fitting is the key to accuracy. Years ago, a bullseye gunsmith named Al Dinan made a test fixture for testing the accuracy of a given barrel. It used a Mauser action I believe. From the fixture, a Colt barrel would shoot as well as any custom barrel then on the market....ie...BarSto, Kart. Fit, then ammo is the key factors for a tight shooting pistol.

Thats interesting to know. I remember seeing an episode of shootingUSA where they had a Doug Koenig profile. It showed him using some sort of fixture to test the accuracy of a barrel. I'm wondering if its the same fixture or one very similar.

Was it a Ransom Rest? One where the hole pistol is held in a fixture and remotely fired?

Get a good barrel (Kart, Schuemann, Barsto, Nowlin) and a good smith (Keller, Brazos, Geo. Smith, De La Bella, Hill) to fit it up. Ask for 0.030" lockup (I think that's it). That's where you can slightly pull the slide to the rear and the bbl hood has not yet started to unlock.

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There are at least a couple of those test fixtures out there. Doug has one and was shown on tv using it, SV has one, Schuemann has/had one, and a magazine writer I can't remember at the time that I know of.

It is a fairly simple fixture to lock the barrel in and test the accuracy of the barrel independent of everything but the load and atmospherics.

As best as I can remember the better barrels were under an inch at 50 yards.

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I know that SV has one and they used it to test/develop the AET design. If I remember correctly, they were able to get 1/2" @ 50 with a .40 cal AET. That is significantly better than they were able to achieve out of conventional barrels.

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Thats interesting to know. I remember seeing an episode of shootingUSA where they had a Doug Koenig profile. It showed him using some sort of fixture to test the accuracy of a barrel. I'm wondering if its the same fixture or one very similar.

I saw that episode too. That's why I posted this topic.

Last year at S&W, I asked Doug Koenig about it. The fixture was made by Joe Comilini (at least that is what I remember, but I'm not 100% on the name). Comilini made around ten, and Doug got his hands on one. I offered to buy it from him, but he wasn't interested in selling it. Doug tests all of his barrels in that fixture before the gun is built. It was certainly not a ransom rest. Doug said he won't use a barrel in his gun (bianchi I believe) unless it will produce sub 1 inch groups at 50 yards.

I agree with everyones opinion about fit being very important. But a barrel only capable of 2" at 50 yards isn't going to get anymore accurate by fitting the barrel to the gun perfectly.

Since I don't have a fixture to test a barrel before the gun is built, I was just wondering.......

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Alex Hamilton, featured one in an article in American Handgunner Magazine, sometime back. It seems to me that Brownell's may have had one in their catalog, not sure.

A guy that use to work for me said that the Army would get in barrels for their Marksmanship Team and test them in a fixture of some sort. They kept the ones that shot to their specs and sent the others back.

A shooter, in one of the clubs I'm in, used a fixture to test a barrel for his PPC gun. I'll e-mail him and see what he used.

Buddy

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I don't know if anybody is doing it now, but I have an old brochure from Pachmayr:

"When we receive your gun we dismount the barrel and test fire it in a special machine rest to determine its inherent accuracy. It is axiomatic that we cannot make your gun shoot better groups than is inherent in the barrel. Our qualification for the Standard and Combat Special is a 5 shot group of 1" at 25 yards - for the Signature System, a 5 shot group of 3/4" or better. If your barrel will not "qualify" we will notify you and ask your permission to install a new barrel. We can supply the .45 match type or the BAR-STO stainless steel barrels."

later...

"Finally we function test your (Signature System) gun in a Ransom machine rest to provide a 5 shot test group of 1" or better at 25 yards."

That may not sound like much now, when it is a standard claim from Wilson and others, but it was a real accomplishment in 1977.

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When I worked for Clark Custom Guns, we had a fixture made by old bullseye gunsmith Al Marvel that allowed us to test barrels independent of the gun. It was handy for a couple of reasons. First, it allowed us to test ammo for accuracy. It also offered some interesting insight about barrels. As previously stated, factory Colt barrels usually shoot just as well as anything else. Also as previously stated, the fit of the barrel to the slide and frame is far more important. There is however a difference from one barrel to the next. Chamber/throat dimensions, rifling style, and even crown make a difference in overall accuracy potential of a barrel.

Another interesting note is that while working for Clark, I also shot literally hundreds of 1911's through a Ransom rest. This really lets you know what makes a gun shoot, and what is less important. The old Bullseye gunsmiths had the accuracy stuff figured out before any of us started shooting fast and reloading. You'd be surprised how many guns built by today's top USPSA gunsmiths would never pass muster by old bullseye standards when you strap them into a Ransom rest. This is not a knock against our USPSA gunsmiths, on average we don't have the same accuracy requirements. Somebody like DK or Bruce Piatt shooting Bianchi are exceptions to the rule. A Ransom rest is a cool tool, but has a lot of it's own problems. It takes a little experience to learn to use the rest properly. Unfortunately just strapping a gun in the rest and whacking away at a piece of paper 50 yds away doesn't always yield the best results. Further, five shot/25 yard groups from a Ransom rest don't tell you much, almost any gun can shoot a good group in this test. To really test true accuracy, you need 10 shot groups at 50 yds.

Mark Dye

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For the cup where they are concerned with x count the smaller group the barrel starts with is better.

Schuemann set up SV's AET manufacturing facility and testing for them to start their own barrels. They were buying so many off him he could not keep up. His barrels are some of the most accurate I have ever seen.

As for other things.

Kodiak Precision builds some of Koenigs guns for the cup. Call them, or call doug and ask what barrels they use in his guns.

I know that my open gun with a clark in it shoots right around 2" at 50 yards. my bullseye gun with a clark in it shoots 1.5" at 50 and tht is a 10 shot group.

I have seen a schuemann barreled gun, go right around 1" with hornady bullets.

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As mentioned in a previous post Frank Pachmayr tested barrels for inherent accuracy but one other thing that he had to do was weld up the barrel hood and bottom lugs on the barrels that were accepted. The barrels were then custom fit to the slide and frame. This process common before the after market bsarrels

became available.

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