TaterHead Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 I have noticed scoring procedures changing at local matches, and wonder if others have any input. My experience has been that after the RO calls "range is clear", they would immediately call out the time for all to hear. They would then go to each target and call out the hits. The scorekeeper would repeat back the call so that there was no misunderstanding. The rest of the squad would be following the RO taping and resetting. What I have noticed on an increasing basis is that the scorekeeper is scoring targets as the stage is being shot. The RO may become involved on a few targets. Often, other shooters are scoring targets. The scorekeeper has paid no attention to the shooter during shooting. Often, and this is really annoying, the RO doesn't call out the time, they simply point the timer towards the scorekeeper. Really? I have to ask for the time? The shooter has no clue as to the hits on each target as it has mostly been done quietly. Seems like the scoring is an important part of the game. I guess the reason for all of this haste is to make the stage go faster, but the time is in resetting, not scoring. Besides, the scorekeeper really is ignoring their safety and scoring responsibilities while the stage is being shot. So is this just non trained RO's, or is this the way scoring is done now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 3 hours ago, TaterHead said: So is this just non trained RO's, or is this the way scoring is done now? This is lazy, and I might add, piss-poor officiating. Familiarize yourself with the provisions of 9.6. If the ROs do not comply with these rules, speak with the RM. If the RM will not comply, speak to the Section Coordinator and Area Director. If they ARE certified ROs, there are provisions for discussing the matter with the DNROI. These folks are doing you, your fellow shooters, and the sport in general a disservice - based on what you describe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rooster Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 We do this all the time. It is announced before the stage begins, and if the shooter wants a delagate to follow the scoring then he makes sure it is correct. Everyone on the squad has to agree and if there are penalties then the target or targets are not touched until the shooter has a chance to view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzt Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Well, I am a certified NROI RO. I am one of those who point the timer at the scorer. I do that because I do not ever take my eyes off the shooter and the gun. That's how I was taught in NROI RO training, so if you don't like it- tough. After the gun is cleared and holstered and I call the range clear, I confirm the time with the scorer. As far as scorers scoring targets, I'm of two minds. Sometimes, the course layout does not lend itself to early scoring, and I call out every hit. Other times, it does, and the scorer walks up behind and scores. If there is a question, like a mike or something else, they call me over to give an official ruling. I'm fine with that. It speed things up, and that is a big plus. What I don't like is the Ms grabbing the nook or iPad and not looking at what was shot. They miss no shoots, etc. because they are in a hurry. NROI school tells you to be flexible and safe. For instance, at one club I RO at, you absolutely, positively have to be done shooting by 4 PM on Sunday. You cannot start earlier than 11 AM. Neighborhoods grew up around the club, and that is the understanding they reached with the neighbors. So here is the deal. The club can further reduce the number of shooters ( currently 75 max ), or speed things up. Since every club I shoot at is always wait listing, I vote for speed things up. I'll also note that in no event is any target pasted before the all scored, tape 'em command is given. OP, read 9.6.1, 9.6.2 and 9.6.3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaterHead Posted June 25, 2017 Author Share Posted June 25, 2017 I said the timer is pointed at the scorekeeper, and that is all. There is no verbal announcement of the time. I am also a CRO, and I also point the timer to the scorekeeper while clearing the shooter. However, the shooter shouldn't have to ask for the time. I'm fully aware of the rules. They are not at all being followed in the scenario I described. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaylanGivens Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 On Level 1 match stages where the RO is likely to end up far from targets shot up front... we have the scorekeeper score the front targets... Like Rooster says, we hold any penalty targets for the shooter to see... We always call out the time... Why wouldn't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 On 6/25/2017 at 3:43 PM, zzt said: Well, I am a certified NROI RO. I am one of those who point the timer at the scorer. I do that because I do not ever take my eyes off the shooter and the gun. That's how I was taught in NROI RO training, so if you don't like it- tough. if you are not glancing at the timer from time to time, you have no idea if the time is correct or if all the shots are getting picked up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 I'm of the opinion that at locals, there's nothing wrong with scoring behind the shooter as the stage is still being shot, if layout permits that safely. But when we do it? If you shot anything that's a Delta or worse you'll get to see that target before we tape it. I see no problem with that as the guy running the nook or the timer, or the guy pulling the trigger. At a major, I want an RO-led tour of every hole I punched given how much $$$ I paid to shoot that match. Or I want to be told that they'll be scoring ahead so that a friend can walk with the scorekeeper. Either one of those is fine with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 3 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said: [...] At a major, I want an RO-led tour of every hole I punched given how much $$$ I paid to shoot that match. Or I want to be told that they'll be scoring ahead so that a friend can walk with the scorekeeper. Either one of those is fine with me. Strange ... That's pretty much EXACTLY what the rules require! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester121 Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 On 6/25/2017 at 4:43 PM, zzt said: I'll also note that in no event is any target pasted before the all scored, tape 'em command is given. Sounds like a time waster to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 On 6/25/2017 at 4:43 PM, zzt said: I'll also note that in no event is any target pasted before the all scored, tape 'em command is given. Sorry ... I'm a little slow tonight. Just where in Chapter 8 IS that particular command? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 10 hours ago, motosapiens said: if you are not glancing at the timer from time to time, you have no idea if the time is correct or if all the shots are getting picked up. A-friggin-men! I was taught to always AT LEAST check that the timer is picking up shots out of the gate AND to hold he timer so I can mentally capture the timer picking up the last shot fired. You must make sure the timer is working initially and you have to make sure the timer doesn't get bumped or pick up a shot from the next bay etc. There are a bunch of RO's that don't do these steps because they have it ingrained to never take your eyes off the gun. That's nuts! I watch the gun when it needs watching and I also look for no shoot hits, mikes over the shoulder etc. Generally if a shooter is just pulling the trigger I tend to focus less on the gun. But once reloading, moving, jams, etc come into play, I'm all about the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzt Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 That actually makes some sense. However, it is definitely not what is taught in NROI class (or at least the one I took). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 2 hours ago, zzt said: That actually makes some sense. However, it is definitely not what is taught in NROI class (or at least the one I took). Yeah I know. NROI seminars are hit or miss and certainly not always consistent from RMI to RMI. I'm sure none of the instruction is wrong per say, but some is certainly more thorough than others. Plus, a lot of it comes from experience running shooters, watching other RO's to learn tricks of the trade, as well as how NOT to RO in some cases. Even though watching the gun is taught as being job one, a good RO learns to multitask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester121 Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 16 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said: Sorry ... I'm a little slow tonight. Just where in Chapter 8 IS that particular command? The rulebook is silent on commands may be given after the course of fire ends, so anything is fair game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmella Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 This is my second year shooting uspsa and my first where I had any real clue what was going on as far as scoring goes. Ive shot 6 matches this year and two out of the 6 my time was entered incorrectly on a stage (I noticed after the match was over when reviewing videos) and made me realize this same thing. That it seems there is no standard procedure as far as how times and scores are recorded and it varies from match to match or from squad to squad depending on who youre squadded with. I now try to ask for the time after every stage to confirm the time and see what was recorded because I am sick of having skewed posted match results to what I actually have performed. Its odd that there isnt a proper procedure layed out on how to score that must be followed after the course of fire is finished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmella Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 There are certain squads/people I try to avoid based on how they score a stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 16 minutes ago, jester121 said: The rulebook is silent on commands may be given after the course of fire ends, so anything is fair game. Sorry ... I'm just a lowly RM. But Chapter 8 lists 8 (and only 8) "Range Commands." (8.3.1 to 8.3.8) Anything else is non-standard, chatter, and should not be construed as a "Range Command." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 On 6/25/2017 at 5:43 PM, zzt said: I'll also note that in no event is any target pasted before the all scored, tape 'em command is given. 1 as soon as a target is scored, it can be pasted, no reason to wait for some made up "Command". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobert1 Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 While running the timer and I rotate it to be read. I sometimes hit the timer with my ring and that changes the read out. One more thing to be aware of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandbagger123 Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 when i run a stage i look for the most efficeint way to score it. if its a left /right stage then its get scored when finished. if the shooter will finish downrange of start of the stage then most of the time we just score while shooting. I always tell the shooters that we will be be doing so and their right for proxy to watch the scoring. if you elect not to do so then its tough donuts. i also many times tell shooters that if they wish to verify their score before its is finalized to tell the score keeper that you want that. we have club where thye have stages that one runs close to 75 yards with targets from beggining to end. No way in heck am i going to follow the shooter to the end and come back and score. did that once with a ro that insisted in doing so and it took forever . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzt Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 On 7/1/2017 at 11:30 AM, bret said: as soon as a target is scored, it can be pasted, no reason to wait for some made up "Command". When the guy with the Nook is entering scores while the RO is running the shooter, the tapers don't know what has been scored or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 8 hours ago, zzt said: When the guy with the Nook is entering scores while the RO is running the shooter, the tapers don't know what has been scored or not. only if everyone is brain-dead and no communication has taken place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADulay Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 On 6/29/2017 at 10:23 PM, Sarge said: ... always AT LEAST check that the timer is picking up shots out of the gate AND to hold he timer so I can mentally capture the timer picking up the last shot fired. You must make sure the timer is working initially and you have to make sure the timer doesn't get bumped or pick up a shot from the next bay etc. Absolutely 100%. The timer is held for the estimated last shots so I can see it picking up the shot. The guy with the Nook can see it when I point it back and him and he repeats the time when I call it. The shooter, the scorer and myself all come up with the same time for the stage. AD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester121 Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 On 6/30/2017 at 10:58 AM, Schutzenmeister said: Sorry ... I'm just a lowly RM. But Chapter 8 lists 8 (and only 8) "Range Commands." (8.3.1 to 8.3.8) Anything else is non-standard, chatter, and should not be construed as a "Range Command." You'll note that my post didn't say anything about "official range command" or any capitalized letters, or even the word "range", so as to avoid confusion. It seems like you've construed some confusion all on your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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