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CM 99-12 Starting Position


nuidad

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My club in Hawaii has asked me to seek clarification on the starting position for Classifier CM 99-12, "Take Your Choice".  In particular:

 

1) How is eye level determined?  Is it the shooters prerogative to decide where his/her eye level is? Or is it his/her "standing" eye level?

 

2) Is the shooter allowed to start with one, or both feet, on the fault lines?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

START POSITION:  Standing in Box A, index finger and thumb of each hand touching, with hands placed flat on

barricade at eye level. Handgun is loaded and holstered as per ready condition in rule 8.1.1 and

8.1.2.

 

 

 

Edited by nuidad
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Classifiers should not be gamed -- according to the classifier course book.  So, eye-level ought to mean that hands are at roughly the same elevation as the competitors eyes.  And I wouldn't start a competitor with feet on fault lines on a classifier.....

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59 minutes ago, Patrick Scott said:

If there is a rules supporting that?  Im being half troll, half serious. 

 

There's guidance in the classifier course book.....

 

In some ways I think IDPA has the right idea -- where the classifier is usually its own stand-alone thing, not part of a monthly match....

 

There'd be less gaming - maybe....

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6 hours ago, Nik Habicht said:

Classifiers should not be gamed -- according to the classifier course book.  So, eye-level ought to mean that hands are at roughly the same elevation as the competitors eyes.  And I wouldn't start a competitor with feet on fault lines on a classifier.....

Nik,  Do you mean eye level when the competitor is standing erect? 

Edited by nuidad
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If you drew a line parallel to the ground from the shooter's eye socket to the barricade, where that line hits the barricade is where their hands should be.

 

Eye level is relative to your anatomy, not what you're looking at.

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8 hours ago, nuidad said:

Nik,  Do you mean eye level when the competitor is standing erect? 

Since the basic start position is standing erect , I would venture to say yes

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12 minutes ago, jcc7x7 said:

Since the basic start position is standing erect , I would venture to say yes

Would the other requirements of the "basic start position" in 8.2.2 apply here as well (mindful that the hands will be on the barricade)?  Could the shooter be looking to the right or left of the barricade?  I think that's what I always do when starting with hands on a barricade, unless the starting position specifies facing downrange.

 

8.2.2...Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Standing on fault lines is too universally accepted in the sport to be considered gaming. And eye level is eye level when standing erect.

Does the specified starting position in 99-12 require the competitor to be standing erect?

 

START POSITION:  Standing in Box A, index finger and thumb of each hand touching, with hands placed flat on

barricade at eye level. Handgun is loaded and holstered as per ready condition in rule 8.1.1 and

8.1.2.

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Thinking about the whole "gaming" issue, I can't think of anything that could be done on this classifier that would be considered gaming.  Gaming is walking nonchalantly back to the bear trap to activate the disappearing drop turner after the last shot is fired to avoid penalties.  We're talking about a foot on the fault line, or bending over a little at the start signal...mostly just being comfortable at the start because that's the way you start most of the time when not specified otherwise in the WSB.  The Classifier Guidance Document states:

 

 Every possible effort has been made to ensure that all the stages in this book are “game proof.” The courses have been repeatedly reviewed by many people with hundreds of years of combined practical shooting and course design experience. These include Range Officers, Chief Range Officers, Range Masters, Range Master Instructors, and the Director of the National Range Officers Institute.

Edited by nuidad
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Leaning over so you can see the targets rather than standing straight and looking into the barricade is more than "just being comfortable".  However, wasn't it determined that once you specify anything other than the default start position (e.g., hands on the barricade), the rest of that default position is out the window?  That would seem to indicate that they can start leaning, head tilted, etc, as long as their hands are at the correct height on the barricade.

 

And with a 2' wide starting box, I've seen lots of people start standing on one or more of the fault lines.  They are part of the shooting box, and standing on them is considered to be "in the shooting box" for the purpose of penalties, etc.

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fault lines are part of the shooting area. standing on them is in the shooting area. I see no requirements to be standing in a particular part of the shooting area, or standing erect, or behind the barricade or facing downrange or any other silly stuff. imho that wsb clearly allows standing leaned over to see the targets, and standing on the fault lines. there are lots of other wsb's that don't allow that stuff, and they are clearly written, so i have to assume the intent is to allow it in this case.

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One last related question that's been bugging me about starting position for all courses of fire...not necessarily just classifiers. Does the start position instruction "standing in shooting area" un-couple the default starting position requirement? Would 8.2.2 only apply if the starting position instruction was "starting in shooting area" or starting outside of shooting area" etc.?  Where nothing else was specified except location.

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25 minutes ago, nuidad said:

One last related question that's been bugging me about starting position for all courses of fire...not necessarily just classifiers. Does the start position instruction "standing in shooting area" un-couple the default starting position requirement? Would 8.2.2 only apply if the starting position instruction was "starting in shooting area" or starting outside of shooting area" etc.?  Where nothing else was specified except location.

No, standing in shooting area tells you where to start, 8.2.2 says how to start.

If WSB says start touching, barrel, wall, etc. then 8.2.2 does not apply, if it says starting behind barrel, inside, outside shooting area, etc, it is telling you where to start and 8.2.2 applies.

 

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Bret.  Thanks...the question was long and convoluted but if I'm reading the rest of your post correctly I think you and I agree (you said "No.").  If it just says standing, the default is un-coupled...anything goes.  If it just says starting, the default is applied.

 

Am I reading you right?

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I think you're misinterpreting him.  He said that the statement "standing in the shooting area" only refers to where you start.  The default start position still applies.

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5 hours ago, JAFO said:

I think you're misinterpreting him.  He said that the statement "standing in the shooting area" only refers to where you start.  The default start position still applies.

Actually, I've always interpreted it like you said.  But then I started thinking, what if it said, "sitting behind table?"  The default wouldn't be applied there...couldn't be applied for obvious reasons.  So I probably started overthinking the whole thing.

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Hopefully somebody still has enough interest in this thread to answer one more question.  Classifier CM 99-07, Both Sides Now #1 (and several others), have Start Positions as below:

 

START POSITION: Standing in Box A, both arms hanging relaxed at sides. Handgun is loaded and holstered as per

ready condition in rule 8.1.1 and 8.1.2.

 

Arms hanging relaxed at sides is one of the criteria for the "default start".  Does that mean the default start is still applied or can the competitor now turn and face in any direction since it is "...otherwise specified" per 8.2.2.

 

Thanks again for your help.  Hopefully I won't be the tinhorn RO that harshes your make-ready Zen-state with uninformed BS.

 

 

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15 hours ago, nuidad said:

Hopefully somebody still has enough interest in this thread to answer one more question.  Classifier CM 99-07, Both Sides Now #1 (and several others), have Start Positions as below:

 

START POSITION: Standing in Box A, both arms hanging relaxed at sides. Handgun is loaded and holstered as per

ready condition in rule 8.1.1 and 8.1.2.

 

Arms hanging relaxed at sides is one of the criteria for the "default start".  Does that mean the default start is still applied or can the competitor now turn and face in any direction since it is "...otherwise specified" per 8.2.2.

 

Thanks again for your help.  Hopefully I won't be the tinhorn RO that harshes your make-ready Zen-state with uninformed BS.

 

 

The default start position is hands relaxed naturally at sides, facing down range.

Down range is defined as well.

WSB does not have to cite all the rules required for start position, that is what the rule book is for.

WSB should be simple, less words the better.

I see several WSB's that say per rules of USPSA Rule Book, Current Edition.

Really?

What other rules would we use in a USPSA Match, an old outdated rule book, IDPA, IPSC?

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8 minutes ago, JAFO said:

If they don't specify something different from the default, I use the default.

Is standing inside the shooting area, or toes touching marks, something different than the default?

 

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I see those as where to start, not how to start. 

 

What I meant by my previous statement was, unless the WSB states a deviation from "...stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides...", I will use that position.  If a WSB just restates part of the default position, I use the default.  If a WSB requires sitting/lying down, facing another direction, or doing something else with arms or hands, then I use whatever is stated in the WSB and nothing more.

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5 hours ago, JAFO said:

I see those as where to start, not how to start. 

 

What I meant by my previous statement was, unless the WSB states a deviation from "...stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides...", I will use that position.  If a WSB just restates part of the default position, I use the default.  If a WSB requires sitting/lying down, facing another direction, or doing something else with arms or hands, then I use whatever is stated in the WSB and nothing more.

Thanks, JAFO.  You present a very logical solution to the dilemma.  I wish I could find a definitive ruling on this and other Start Position questions as there seems to be a lot of "alternate" interpretations out there.  I have run into several here in this thread as well as on the range.  A sentence in 8.2.2 that says, "If a WSB restates part of the default position, use the default," would be helpful.

 

The question that arises is, why wouldn't the CM-99-07 WSB then just say "...Standing in Box A?"  That would make it very simple...DEFAULT POSITION, period.  Why would they add a level of complexity to interpreting the WSB by adding anything?  Especially in a Classifier where the intent is to have everyone start and shoot the stage the same.  I can understand some redundancy and ambiguity at the club level in preparing the WSB but with all the scrutiny and all the effort having been put into making sure the classifiers were clear and concise, I wonder if they are actually describing the start position that was intended i.e., Standing in Box A (anyway you want) but with both arms...blah, blah.

 

Have you found that most ROs ascribe to your use of the default in this situation?

 

 

Edited by nuidad
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